Knee issues from frog kicking?

[wetb4igetinthewater]

This article Lower limb injuries in breaststroke swimmers - Central Coast Physiotherapy was discussed on FB, so I am sharing that here in hopes some experts can chime in. There is this additional article mentioned: Common Swimming Injuries | Orlin & Cohen Orthopedic Group

The question is: is frog kicking bad for the knees? If yes, is it possible to mitigate? Or is the issues of competitive swimmers introducing a stress on the knees far greater than what a diver would do, as we try to move as slowly as possible?

 

[Kendall Raine]

This article Lower limb injuries in breaststroke swimmers - Central Coast Physiotherapy was discussed on FB, so I am sharing that here in hopes some experts can chime in. There is this additional article mentioned: Common Swimming Injuries | Orlin & Cohen Orthopedic Group

The question is: is frog kicking bad for the knees? If yes, is it possible to mitigate? Or is the issues of competitive swimmers introducing a stress on the knees far greater than what a diver would do, as we try to move as slowly as possible?

From a diver's perspective (as opposed to physicians or PT's), the frog kick is essentially the same motion as the breaststroke kick, but done (for the most part) at a much less intense pace. A competitive breaststroke kick should have an explosive snap component as part of the movement which isn't necessary in diving. Furthermore, use of the breaststroke kick is a requirement of the competitive technique. Not so with diving. In fact, mixing up kick strokes during a dive (including flutter, modified flutter, shuffle, dolphin), as well as changing pace, is a good idea to relieve leg strain as well as necessary depending on the situation (many times in small cave-vertically narrow passages/restrictions-the frog is not the stroke to use; much better to use the shuffle or dolphin-or big power passages or mid-water where the flutter can be appropriate). Seems to me the selection of kick stroke should be 1) dependent on the circumstances and not a one-size-fits-all-I-gotta-use-it-or-someone-will-call-me-a-stroke issue, 2) varied to avoid fatigue/repetative use injury, 3) slow and easy in most circumstances (try to look like a fish). So long as the stroke avoids silting or contacting the environment why not use it. In all cases let pain be your guide. If something hurts stop doing it. Stretching before and after a dive is a good idea, as well.

 

[dlofting]

I can only go by personal experience. I have pain in both knees at times when I'm walking. Downhill is the worst. Both have been sprained and one was a complete rupture. Knee pain is quite common in a person my age (68) with arthritis and old injuries that have healed but left scar tissue.

That said, frog kick when I'm diving doesn't cause me any pain. Maybe it's because I'm relaxed and moving very slowly. Climbing the ladder into the boat is a different story, particularly if I have all the gear on.

 

[RobPNW]

As I guy who did judo, wrestling and was a baseball catcher for 12 years all the way through college, I am no stranger to knee and ankle pain. With that said, I just did 35 dives in 2 weeks, about 90% frog kicking, and I did fine. Pain free? No, but I was fine.

I think a couple points above are valid. Most of the time divers are trying to move their legs gracefully to conserve energy and gas etc. The other thing I would add, is that most pain in the knees is from weight bearing activity. In the water, the cartilage and ligaments elongate, causing less pressure on nerves, which I'm sure mitigates to a great degree.

I have no idea how I would feel frog kicking more "aggressively" or with significantly more weight and drag (like cold water drysuit diving). If I need to get from point A to B fast, I just flutter kick, which is obviously a completely different movement.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

As a former competitive swimmer in high school (ages ago), and after having two kids on competitive swim teams (more recent, but 1980s) I have a few insights.

The first is that competitive swimmers these days put in hours per day swimming. Some are swimming well over 10,000 yards per day, in two practices (morning and afternoon). In order for the breast stroke to be effective, it needs a very powerful kick. This includes what is called almost a "whip kick" in which the legs are very, very aggressively brought together at the end of the kick cycle. This is probably what is causing the problems with competitive breast stroke swimmers.

Diving is totally different, as the kick is nowhere near what a competitive swimmer does. The frog kick varies dramatically from what a competitive swimmer does too, as the kick is not really powerful. That would stir up the water more than frog kicking divers want. The frog kick is a kick above the plane of the diver horizontally, in order to keep any disturbance from water flow off the bottom (so as not to stir up the bottom in caves and wrecks). This is far different from competitive swimmers, who drop the legs a bit, and if it were in open water their kick would probably stir up the bottom, as some use a dolphin kick within the breast stroke kick.

We (my wife and I) were concerned enough that we recommended that my younger son, a Junior Nationals Swimmer, not seek a swimming scholarship, and instead concentrate on an academic scholarship when applying to college. We were concerned about the extremely high amount of time spent swimming (4+ hours/day). So my sons got their degrees based upon academic, rather than athletic, abilities.


SeaRat

 

[dmaziuk]

I'd be much more worried about the more common breaststroke injury: the neck. Divers are far more likely to be in that perfect horizontal trim and look forward, than to ever do the breaststroke kick that the swimmers do.

(And yes: they train swimmers to look down, not forward.)

 

[John C. Ratliff]

I'd be much more worried about the more common breaststroke injury: the neck. Divers are far more likely to be in that perfect horizontal trim and look forward, than to ever do the breaststroke kick that the swimmers do.

(And yes: they train swimmers to look down, not forward.)

For swimmers, they train to look down when swimming the breaststroke so as to maintain streamlining (see my son's demonstration in the photo in the above post, #5). But as someone who's trained extensively in ergonomics in the workplace, the head placement for divers is somewhat different, in that the water's buoyancy offsets a lot of the weight that the head has in sustaining a "head up" position for bicyclists. Because of that, a diver is much less likely to have a neck injury than is a bicyclist, for instance. Bicyclists hold their head up to look ahead, against gravity. This places a lot of force against the neck muscles and vertebra of the neck.

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SeaRat

 

[dmaziuk]

Streamlining isn't an issue when your head is above water. Edit: when they teach you to do it right, they teach "ears to biceps" underwater for streamlining, and not raising your head to look forward when above water beacuse "ducking" your head is generally considered a bad form, and increasingly: becasue it's bad for your neck.

I am talking about people swimming breaststroke with their head above water: that puts their muscles under worse strain that bike riders' (the body is more horizontal), and it can't be good for the intervertebral discs either -- especially in those of us whose discs are not 18 anymore.

 

[Marie13]

This article Lower limb injuries in breaststroke swimmers - Central Coast Physiotherapy was discussed on FB, so I am sharing that here in hopes some experts can chime in. There is this additional article mentioned: Common Swimming Injuries | Orlin & Cohen Orthopedic Group

The question is: is frog kicking bad for the knees? If yes, is it possible to mitigate? Or is the issues of competitive swimmers introducing a stress on the knees far greater than what a diver would do, as we try to move as slowly as possible?

I was recently diagnosed with moderate to severe osteoarthritis in both knees. Helicopter turns hurt, especially my right knee. I got a cortisone shot in both knees a week ago, and I was able to do helicopter turns without pain during my last dive.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

Streamlining isn't an issue when your head is above water. Edit: when they teach you to do it right, they teach "ears to biceps" underwater for streamlining, and not raising your head to look forward when above water beacuse "ducking" your head is generally considered a bad form, and increasingly: becasue it's bad for your neck.

I am talking about people swimming breaststroke with their head above water: that puts their muscles under worse strain that bike riders' (the body is more horizontal), and it can't be good for the intervertebral discs either -- especially in those of us whose discs are not 18 anymore.

I am not sure of this statement, as a swimmer in the water doesn't hold the head-forward position as much as a bicycle rider on an upright bicycle with drop bars. (I've found that putting the drop bars a few inches above the seat level takes a lot of the strain off the neck; this is the Rivendell Bicycles method of touring.) The reason is that in swimming, the person is more dynamic, and changing positions often. I'm "...not 18 anymore..." at age 77, and haven't had problems with my neck in breast stroke swimming. But then again, I rarely swim more than about 1,000 yards before switching to mask, snorkel and fins. When I'm swimming breast stroke, I only have my head up when breathing; at other times, it's in the water, relieving the stress on the neck.

SeaRat