KISS Sidewinder Training

[rddvet]

what single PO2 comes stock?

Because you can say that but it's not correct.

The unit comes with the PO2 monitors that the users chooses, including none if they choose that.

I have looked at the Ginnie death, the conclusion many have come to I do not share

When I took the class I was not given any option. The unit came with a single fischer connector for a shearwater. Edd did not give me any options or discuss any options with me. Going into the class at the time there were very few discussions on the unit since it was fairly new. Nobody talked about the options available, including Edd. So going in I just went with what Edd said was standard and what "everybody" he was putting in the unit was using. I don't like having just one p02 monitor. It may not be necessary in some peoples' eyes, but I feel it's important. The reason I worded my response to the op the way I did (discuss with the instructor first) is because I wasn't given options. I was just told this is how it comes. Maybe that's changed, but it is still a very important thing to discuss imo.
As for the ginnie death, the sw didn't kill him. It was a factor. His carelesness and (potentially) lack of experience for the diving he was doing (that is my opinion, so why I say potentially) is what killed him. Based on everything I know of the death (and I've been privy to all of the details) is that complacency/distraction is the culprit, but the inline shutoff and lack of secondary p02 monitor were major contributing factors. As I said before, not every diver is perfect. I know I'm not. So having safety nets is nice.

 

[Superlyte27]

What I am reading is that your PPO2 dropped to a totally safe level after an extended exertion and you were then about to restore it to an optimal level after an interval of a couple of minutes.

What I am reading is that your PPO2 dropped to a totally safe level after an extended exertion and you were then about to restore it to an optimal level after an interval of a couple of minutes.

I emailed them a couple of times with no response. Guess I'll give them a ring and discuss it. Does he do the initial open water training on the unit there at Merritts Mill?


I do a decent amount of Sidemount only passages in Mexico so that's the big draw to the SW. And yes, the plan is to have a Petrel plus a NERD.

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Thanks for all the feedback guys. Have to admit...I'm surprised to find such negative feedback on the SW on this forum. I know Edd, Brian Kakuk and the ProTec boys use the SW and Sidekick extensively in some pretty sketchy places so I just assumed it was a solid unit. Definitely making me think twice about going down this route.

Those guys have lots of hours on ccr before the SW came out.

 

[rjack321]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. Have to admit...I'm surprised to find such negative feedback on the SW on this forum. I know Edd, Brian Kakuk and the ProTec boys use the SW and Sidekick extensively in some pretty sketchy places so I just assumed it was a solid unit. Definitely making me think twice about going down this route.

You can do some try dives (which are somewhat questionable cause you don't know what you don't know). But really the crux of many of these issues comes down to SM CCRs having so many compromises (not just the SW). Where and how much BO you can carry, the WOB, the flood tolerance, the ability to even reach critical components, the lack of an established 'industry standard' configuration, customization of units by individual instructors and that SM CCR training standards in many cases are almost non-existent. Many critical decisions and choices are left up to an individual instructor and the strengths and weaknesses of those choices are only now coming out after many more units are in use, and some fatalities.

That's why there is significant merit (IMHO) of getting a backmount unit (used even), getting your MOD1, putting in a couple hundred hours and getting a feel for what the hell is going on in either of the now 2 main configurations (BM dil/bo&o2 or BM dil/o2 + SM BO). You can dive OW, and BM caves in either configuration. A year or two from now with 150 CCR hours you're in a much better place to decide on a SM unit. Perhaps it'll be the SW, perhaps a liberty or a triton or chopima. If you want to go all in on SM and SM CCR then sell the BM unit for 75-90% of what you got it for used. Or keep it for when BM is the right tool for the job (Great Lakes wrecks, NC, Cali Channel islands all come to mind)

 

[cerich]

You can do some try dives (which are somewhat questionable cause you don't know what you don't know). But really the crux of many of these issues comes down to SM CCRs having so many compromises (not just the SW). Where and how much BO you can carry, the WOB, the flood tolerance, the ability to even reach critical components, the lack of an established 'industry standard' configuration, customization of units by individual instructors and that SM CCR training standards in many cases are almost non-existent. Many critical decisions and choices are left up to an individual instructor and the strengths and weaknesses of those choices are only now coming out after many more units are in use, and some fatalities.

That's why there is significant merit (IMHO) of getting a backmount unit (used even), getting your MOD1, putting in a couple hundred hours and getting a feel for what the hell is going on in either of the now 2 main configurations (BM dil/bo&o2 or BM dil/o2 + SM BO). You can dive OW, and BM caves in either configuration. A year or two from now with 150 CCR hours you're in a much better place to decide on a SM unit. Perhaps it'll be the SW, perhaps a liberty or a triton or chopima. If you want to go all in on SM and SM CCR then sell the BM unit for 75-90% of what you got it for used. Or keep it for when BM is the right tool for the job (Great Lakes wrecks, NC, Cali Channel islands all come to mind)

Your first paragraph applies as much to BM CCR as SM in many points, your point regards training standards is not at all valid

 

[Blackfrogfeet]

I am not "blaming the dead". I am stating the truth, if someone isn't paying attention to their monitor(s) it doesn't matter how many they have. People have had haptic units shaking and buzzing a storm and ignored, others have ignored visual ones like Nerd/HUD as they flash and try to get attention as well. Is the argument of having one that is more intrusive in demanding attention worth a discussion? Yes, IMHO. However, you didn't say a second more intrusive type, you seemed to be focusing on there being only one. I disagree that a single one is inherently more dangerous than say having two or even more. If that single one goes inop, then SCR is perfectly viable as is bail out. Some potential failure points that may cause a single one to go inop would also cause a second unit to as well (those are in fact most likely also to force a bail out and SCR not so much). I am amazed at how many instructors don't teach SCR on the SW, it taking away a tool that is very reliable. Plus, I would disagree with your assertion "That's where either unit or diver errors don't rapidly progress to life threatening" in the context of SW specifically. Leaving oxygen shut off is universal CCR, same no sorb . But the SW isn't a unit that "rapidly progress to life threatening" compared to other CCRs'.

How are you supposed to safely operate a CCR in SCR mode with no means of PO2 monitoring? Genuinely curious. You would have no way of knowing how dilute your dil was getting, and you'd need to be inject fresh dil so often as a safety margin that you may as well bail to OC. Not to mention if you imagine someone doing something like that in a shallow Mexican cave where dilution hypoxia would become a serious risk with no PO2 monitoring.

 

[rjack321]

How are you supposed to safely operate a CCR in SCR mode with no means of PO2 monitoring?

They are lying to themselves based on a narrow range of conditions like swimming out of JB on SCR. Cause it's the same basic depth range for hundreds of meters and if you're on 32% dil/bo you can take quite a few breaths at 85ft with minimal drop (fresh squirt dil every 20 breaths for instance).

Change the depth? Change the dil? have an ascent? You're totally rolling the dice. It's an awful idea unless you are in dire need and willing to risk hypoxia in preference to known drowning cause you penetrated too far on a set of lp50s.

 

[tbone1004]

How are you supposed to safely operate a CCR in SCR mode with no means of PO2 monitoring? Genuinely curious. You would have no way of knowing how dilute your dil was getting, and you'd need to be inject fresh dil so often as a safety margin that you may as well bail to OC. Not to mention if you imagine someone doing something like that in a shallow Mexican cave where dilution hypoxia would become a serious risk with no PO2 monitoring.

you count the number of breaths. If you lose count, you flush. Most of the SCR's that have been made do not come with monitors. Admittedly they are fixed ratio, but you can also decide to use a fixed ratio as well. Practice it with the monitors to figure out what ratio's work for you to an acceptable drop in ppO2 *which vary from rebreather to rebreather based on the volume of dead space in the loop* and you'll figure out what works.
It is a very useful tool in cave diving, not so much in OW diving, but definitely a useful one in cave diving. Useful not only if the monitors die, but also if you're in 0 vis

 

[cerich]

They are lying to themselves based on a narrow range of conditions like swimming out of JB on SCR. Cause it's the same basic depth range for hundreds of meters and if you're on 32% dil/bo you can take quite a few breaths at 85ft with minimal drop (fresh squirt dil every 20 breaths for instance).

Change the depth? Change the dil? have an ascent? You're totally rolling the dice. It's an awful idea unless you are in dire need and willing to risk hypoxia in preference to known drowning cause you penetrated too far on a set of lp50s.

You make some assumptions, we still calculate bail out and being able to make it out on said BO. In fact, I don't believe in team BO so...


As far as a depth change, you know you dil, you know depth and thus should know your PO2, you just flush before starting your assent. You also know if your planned depth you are ascending to is hypoxic or not based on dil and depth, during the ascent, you will be going to a higher ratio of SCR (exhaling gas out nose, adding dil) than if at a fixed depth. Unless a hypoxic dil mix for say a deeper Tmix dive, it actually doesn't take much dil to keep your PO2 breathable. You will however start to reduce your no deco time faster or rack up more deco than you planned for MCCR. However even if I am flushing min lung volume every 2 breaths, I have halved gas consumption compared to OC BO.

To the 32% comment, even air takes some work to get to drop below .18 PPO2, even as shallow as 30 ft if you are doing SCR manually and doing a flush every 3 breaths you won't drop below ~.3 PPO2

If you do SCR it is something that you should have practiced, getting dialed in to your metabolic rate and the unit to be secure in what drop you can expect in various conditions such as working or resting at various depths with your standardized gases. SCR is a gas extender, and the reason I will use , regardless of the fact that I have sufficient BO is that I operate under the assumption that something has already happened that caused me to go SCR , as such, it is a reasonable assumption that something else will happen. Murphy is a dive buddy always. Thus, I will use the gas in SCR mode, if that runs out, I still have my BO. I won't bother with SCR mode shallower than 30 ft, heck, often I don't bother with CCR for deco and use my OC O2.

 

[rjack321]

you count the number of breaths. If you lose count, you flush. Most of the SCR's that have been made do not come with monitors. Admittedly they are fixed ratio, but you can also decide to use a fixed ratio as well. Practice it with the monitors to figure out what ratio's work for you to an acceptable drop in ppO2 *which vary from rebreather to rebreather based on the volume of dead space in the loop* and you'll figure out what works.
It is a very useful tool in cave diving, not so much in OW diving, but definitely a useful one in cave diving. Useful not only if the monitors die, but also if you're in 0 vis

This just doesn't work. Take your same 32% dil and swim an hour of almost any MX cave and you are in deep trouble unless you know your "breath count" for 35ft too. Even a full flush only gets you up to 0.7 and the volume is less so the drop is more. How much more? Honestly I am not going to bother to test every combination, many of my dives have extensive shallow sections on low ppO2 dil.

You make some assumptions, we still calculate bail out and being able to make it out on said BO. In fact, I don't believe in team BO so...


As far as a depth change, you know you dil, you know depth and thus should know your PO2, you just flush before starting your assent. You also know if your planned depth you are ascending to is hypoxic or not based on dil and depth, during the ascent, you will be going to a higher ratio of SCR (exhaling gas out nose, adding dil) than if at a fixed depth. Unless a hypoxic dil mix for say a deeper Tmix dive, it actually doesn't take much dil to keep your PO2 breathable. You will however start to reduce your no deco time faster or rack up more deco than you planned for MCCR. However even if I am flushing min lung volume every 2 breaths, I have halved gas consumption compared to OC BO.

To the 32% comment, even air takes some work to get to drop below .18 PPO2, even as shallow as 30 ft if you are doing SCR manually and doing a flush every 3 breaths you won't drop below ~.3 PPO2

If you do SCR it is something that you should have practiced, getting dialed in to your metabolic rate and the unit to be secure in what drop you can expect in various conditions such as working or resting at various depths with your standardized gases. SCR is a gas extender, and the reason I will use , regardless of the fact that I have sufficient BO is that I operate under the assumption that something has already happened that caused me to go SCR , as such, it is a reasonable assumption that something else will happen. Murphy is a dive buddy always. Thus, I will use the gas in SCR mode, if that runs out, I still have my BO. I won't bother with SCR mode shallower than 30 ft, heck, often I don't bother with CCR for deco and use my OC O2.

You obviously don't dive serious see-saw caves or shallow ones either. A full flush every 3 breaths lol Adding all that distraction onto an already problematic exit.

Or you could design and dive a CCR that has cell connections more thoughtfully placed and better splitters in a more hospitable place. For instance the connectors on the Meg are not going to get splashed with nasty condensation like in the sidewinder head - and the isolation board on the Meg is fully sealed and potted. Even the Revo (as much as I rag on them) has better cell management than a sidewinder. Yes those units are both bigger and more robust - which leads me back to my initial post. The sidewinder is not a beginner's CCR

 

[Superlyte27]

This just doesn't work. Take your same 32% dil and swim an hour of almost any MX cave and you are in deep trouble unless you know your "breath count" for 35ft too. Even a full flush only gets you up to 0.7 and the volume is less so the drop is more. How much more? Honestly I am not going to bother to test every combination, many of my dives have extensive shallow sections on low ppO2 dil.


You obviously don't dive serious see-saw caves or shallow ones either. A full flush every 3 breaths lol Adding all that distraction onto an already problematic exit.

Or you could design and dive a CCR that has cell connections more thoughtfully placed and better splitters in a more hospitable place. For instance the connectors on the Meg are not going to get splashed with nasty condensation like in the sidewinder head - and the isolation board on the Meg is fully sealed and potted. Even the Revo (as much as I rag on them) has better cell management than a sidewinder. Yes those units are both bigger and more robust - which leads me back to my initial post. The sidewinder is not a beginner's CCR

Honestly, the cells in a SW aren’t the issue. I’ve done many big dives and not lost any cells. I’ve also flooded the SW more times than all my other ccr combined (which is the real issue) and the cells still ran correct.

Flood tolerance and food susceptibility are my biggest issues. Tight stuff shears off weak stuff and the SW doesn’t tolerate it both at OPV and at the loop connections. Also, if the build is not absolutely perfect, it’ll fail a negative over and over. It’s not like JJ, Optima, Liberty, even rEvo that seem to always pass negative. I’ve had 4 sidewinders and a single spec of dust will flood them.

With all of that said, imo, it’s the best tool for the job out of the side mount rebreathers available right now. But, if I could only have one ccr, it wouldn’t be the SW.