KISS Sidewinder Training

[rddvet]

If you cant monitor your PPO2 due to laziness or distraction you have no business using any brand or model of ccr. At least with an mCCR the O2 will keep flowing until the tank is empty. This is a problem i have with eCCR units. The divers acclimate to expecting a computer and other electronics to take on responsibility for their safety.

As I stated to cerich, you are absolutely correct. But we don't live in a perfect world. There are alot of people doing things they shouldn't be. CCR diving is one of them. If it was possible to tell every idiot, moron, or lazy person to stop being that way and they listened, great. But that's not the world we live in.

 

[rddvet]

I have about 2000 hours of CCR, and probably 300 of that is on the SW. I'm an instructor on all of the optimas, liberties and sidewinder.

A few years ago I was diving the new section of Ginnie and got in a very tight and silty spot that took way too much focus and way too much scraping. I had only a shearwater wrist unit, and my left arm was wedged for what seemed like a solid minute or two. I eventually pulled myself through and got free, but when I was finally able to look at my PPO2 it was at a .37. I sold the unit the next day and bought a SW with a NERD.

I agree with the above posters. The SW is a great unit. But it's not the best first unit. Good luck in whatever you decide, but if you buy one, spend the extra money and get the nerd. It just might save your life.

Flame away.

It's nice to see an instructor on the unit who's actually honest about it. That is not the norm.

Sorry for 3 replies in a row without multiquoting

 

[rjack321]

there is no "stock software" on a sidewinder. You choose what computer to run. You can have 20 PO2 displays, if you get lazy and don't look at them it is the same problem. Having 2 isn't the fix, not getting complacent is.

Blame the dead much?

There are ways to engineer out many of the flaws in CCRs. The goal being to make CCRs and CCR divers "fail gently". That's where either unit or diver errors don't rapidly progress to life threatening.

The sidewinder is so "mix & match do whatever you want, choose whatever you want" that it's shockingly easily to construct a unit which either through unit problems, poor training, lack or experience, or diver error will fail in ways that are immediately life threatening. Unfortunately many sidewinder instructors seem completely incapable of recognizing the weaknesses of the unit and the various configurations. They are doubling down on some of the poor design, poor quality control, and dubious configuration concepts.

The unit has a place for certain dives and divers, a first generalist CCR is definitely not that place.

 

[cerich]

The unit comes with a single p02 monitor as stock. To me that is not good enough. That is why I told him to discuss it with his instructors. Some instructors are cool with a single p02 monitor. Some aren't. I have a hud on my unit and love it because I rarely have to look at my computer. It's never a distraction. Until you do something dumb and it blinks its ass off to save your life.
I 100% agree not being complacent is the solution. Unfortunately that trait is not something we see in every ccr diver. If nobody ever got lazy we wouldn't have half the fatalities we do. Look at the Ginnie death.

what single PO2 comes stock?

Because you can say that but it's not correct.

The unit comes with the PO2 monitors that the users chooses, including none if they choose that.

I have looked at the Ginnie death, the conclusion many have come to I do not share

 

[cerich]

Blame the dead much?

There are ways to engineer out many of the flaws in CCRs. The goal being to make CCRs and CCR divers "fail gently". That's where either unit or diver errors don't rapidly progress to life threatening.

The sidewinder is so "mix & match do whatever you want, choose whatever you want" that it's shockingly easily to construct a unit which either through unit problems, poor training, lack or experience, or diver error will fail in ways that are immediately life threatening. Unfortunately many sidewinder instructors seem completely incapable of recognizing the weaknesses of the unit and the various configurations. They are doubling down on some of the poor design, poor quality control, and dubious configuration concepts.

The unit has a place for certain dives and divers, a first generalist CCR is definitely not that place.

I am not "blaming the dead". I am stating the truth, if someone isn't paying attention to their monitor(s) it doesn't matter how many they have. People have had haptic units shaking and buzzing a storm and ignored, others have ignored visual ones like Nerd/HUD as they flash and try to get attention as well. Is the argument of having one that is more intrusive in demanding attention worth a discussion? Yes, IMHO. However, you didn't say a second more intrusive type, you seemed to be focusing on there being only one. I disagree that a single one is inherently more dangerous than say having two or even more. If that single one goes inop, then SCR is perfectly viable as is bail out. Some potential failure points that may cause a single one to go inop would also cause a second unit to as well (those are in fact most likely also to force a bail out and SCR not so much). I am amazed at how many instructors don't teach SCR on the SW, it taking away a tool that is very reliable. Plus, I would disagree with your assertion "That's where either unit or diver errors don't rapidly progress to life threatening" in the context of SW specifically. Leaving oxygen shut off is universal CCR, same no sorb . But the SW isn't a unit that "rapidly progress to life threatening" compared to other CCRs'.

 

[rjack321]

I am not "blaming the dead". I am stating the truth, if someone isn't paying attention to their monitor(s) it doesn't matter how many they have. People have had haptic units shaking and buzzing a storm and ignored, others have ignored visual ones like Nerd/HUD as they flash and try to get attention as well. Is the argument of having one that is more intrusive in demanding attention worth a discussion? Yes, IMHO. However, you didn't say a second more intrusive type, you seemed to be focusing on there being only one. I disagree that a single one is inherently more dangerous than say having two or even more. If that single one goes inop, then SCR is perfectly viable as is bail out. Some potential failure points that may cause a single one to go inop would also cause a second unit to as well (those are in fact most likely also to force a bail out and SCR not so much). I am amazed at how many instructors don't teach SCR on the SW, it taking away a tool that is very reliable. Plus, I would disagree with your assertion "That's where either unit or diver errors don't rapidly progress to life threatening" in the context of SW specifically. Leaving oxygen shut off is universal CCR, same no sorb . But the SW isn't a unit that "rapidly progress to life threatening" compared to other CCRs'.

Shrugs
The sidewinder crowd are the only people intentionally putting shutoffs on their O2. No other manufacturer or unit or cadre of instructors has that as a quasi stock mod. It's a terrible equipment choice, leading to poor instruction, and equally dubious diving practices. Shutting off your O2 to "breathe down the loop" is just a terrible concept in so many ways compared to just doing a dil flush in the first place.

SCR is a totally useless "skill" for a MOD1 wreck diver. Or almost anyone needing to do a significant ascent. SCR is also not appropriate when you have no ppO2 monitoring either, but somehow that is being intermittently taught to rank CCR beginners in MOD1/cross-over sidewinder courses (in particular). In the most recent Ginnie fatality, it seems to be a bit illogical to blame the diver for not monitoring their ppO2, yet here you are at the same time advocating staying on the loop via SCR when they can't monitor their O2.

Sure SCR works in some select FL caves like Ginnie or JB when you're using a hot dil like 30/30 or 32%. Change the profile or the dil and surprise SCR doesn't work at all. As a general universal ingrained CCR habit, its insanity to be teaching SCR to CCR beginners. No other manufacturer/unit/instructor combo is teaching SCR in MOD1. But sidewinder instructor dealers are in their own universe it seems - with poor QA and unique practices and course content they have made up as much as their unit hours.

Certainly having a second monitor on the sidewinder has its issues. The build quality on the splitters is horrendous, I've had several fail connectivity (I'm guessing the isolation resistor) and the molex connectors love to disconnect in the head which takes that cell off one or both monitors.

 

[Black Cat]

Call Cave Adventurers and get on Edd's schedule. No one better on that rig than he is

I emailed them a couple of times with no response. Guess I'll give them a ring and discuss it. Does he do the initial open water training on the unit there at Merritts Mill?

I have about 2000 hours of CCR, and probably 300 of that is on the SW. I'm an instructor on all of the optimas, liberties and sidewinder.

A few years ago I was diving the new section of Ginnie and got in a very tight and silty spot that took way too much focus and way too much scraping. I had only a shearwater wrist unit, and my left arm was wedged for what seemed like a solid minute or two. I eventually pulled myself through and got free, but when I was finally able to look at my PPO2 it was at a .37. I sold the unit the next day and bought a SW with a NERD.

I agree with the above posters. The SW is a great unit. But it's not the best first unit. Good luck in whatever you decide, but if you buy one, spend the extra money and get the nerd. It just might save your life.

Flame away.

I do a decent amount of Sidemount only passages in Mexico so that's the big draw to the SW. And yes, the plan is to have a Petrel plus a NERD.

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Thanks for all the feedback guys. Have to admit...I'm surprised to find such negative feedback on the SW on this forum. I know Edd, Brian Kakuk and the ProTec boys use the SW and Sidekick extensively in some pretty sketchy places so I just assumed it was a solid unit. Definitely making me think twice about going down this route.

 

[cerich]

Shrugs
The sidewinder crowd are the only people intentionally putting shutoffs on their O2. No other manufacturer or unit or cadre of instructors has that as a quasi stock mod. It's a terrible equipment choice, leading to poor instruction, and equally dubious diving practices. Shutting off your O2 to "breathe down the loop" is just a terrible concept in so many ways compared to just doing a dil flush in the first place.

Disagree

SCR is a totally useless "skill" for a MOD1 wreck diver. Or almost anyone needing to do a significant ascent. SCR is also not appropriate when you have no ppO2 monitoring either, but somehow that is being intermittently taught to rank CCR beginners in MOD1/cross-over sidewinder courses (in particular). In the most recent Ginnie fatality, it seems to be a bit illogical to blame the diver for not monitoring their ppO2, yet here you are at the same time advocating staying on the loop via SCR when they can't monitor their O2.

Disagree and you brought yup Ginnie, not me

Sure SCR works in some select FL caves like Ginnie or JB when you're using a hot dil like 30/30 or 32%. Change the profile or the dil and surprise SCR doesn't work at all. As a general universal ingrained CCR habit, its insanity to be teaching SCR to CCR beginners. No other manufacturer/unit/instructor combo is teaching SCR in MOD1. But sidewinder instructor dealers are in their own universe it seems - with poor QA and unique practices and course content they have made up as much as their unit hours.

There are other units where the stands call for teaching SCR .

Certainly having a second monitor on the sidewinder has its issues. The build quality on the splitters is horrendous, I've had several fail connectivity (I'm guessing the isolation resistor) and the molex connectors love to disconnect in the head which takes that cell off one or both monitors.

 

[tbone1004]

I emailed them a couple of times with no response. Guess I'll give them a ring and discuss it. Does he do the initial open water training on the unit there at Merritts Mill?


I do a decent amount of Sidemount only passages in Mexico so that's the big draw to the SW. And yes, the plan is to have a Petrel plus a NERD.

---

---

Thanks for all the feedback guys. Have to admit...I'm surprised to find such negative feedback on the SW on this forum. I know Edd, Brian Kakuk and the ProTec boys use the SW and Sidekick extensively in some pretty sketchy places so I just assumed it was a solid unit. Definitely making me think twice about going down this route.

Call, email is hit or miss. Mod1 is typically taught at Vortex or Morrison Springs. You stay in Marianna, classwork in the Gym, then carpool to Vortex/Morrison which are about an hour away which covers a lot of lecture time. If you are cave certified they have a waiver to take you into JB up to the first breakdown and in the cavern area after the first day or two.

 

[tbone1004]

Risk analysis in the real world is typically severity of risk multiplied by probability of risk multiplied by detectability of failure.

I do not believe that dual ppO2 monitors on the KISS units are worth the risk.

Detectability of failure is going to be the same, as is severity of failure for both which leaves probability of failure.
Probability of the computer being the root cause of a failed ppO2 reading is incredibly low with the computers we have these days. Conversely the probability of the splitters failing is astronomically high.
The benefit of the secondary monitor is the ability to put a blinky HUD in your face and for that I do not personally believe it is worth the risk of the splitters failing.

That is a personal choice and while I do very much miss my blinky HUD when diving my unit, I personally believe that the haptic feedback of my Divesoft Freedom outweighs using a NERD as a single point of monitoring.

Personally I think KISS sticking with analog monitoring is the real crux of this dual ppO2 monitor issue and that they need to immediately move to the OBOE from Shearwater in order to allow reliable and convenient dual monitoring devices from their units which still leaves them as mCCR's but at least moves them over to the same canbus based electronics that literally every other rebreather manufacturer is using. Some may not be using Shearwaters version of canbus, but I am not aware of any large CCR manufacturer that isn't using digital monitoring. Admittedly they're all also eCCR's at this point, but one does not require the other. Fathom, Triton, etc. are exceptions but they are still very very small vs KISS which is a full time CCR manufacturer