Just curious about how well marketed "GUE" concept is in various parts of the world?

Your opinion regarding GUE & associated concepts etc?

  • Just good ol' dive knowledge being packaged for $$'s sake

    Votes: 17 48.6%
  • It's a genuine good thing for the dive community!

    Votes: 18 51.4%

  • Total voters
    35

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DrSteve once bubbled...
Having gone through BSAC, SSI and PADI training I am curious what does DIR teach you that the other don't (or more likely that SSI and PADI don't)? Please don't bring up the wing...I need something more than an equipment choice...what skills as so hard that an experienced diver cannot manage them?

Great question.

I haven't taken any SSI or BSAC courses... So I'm relatively ignorant when it comes to those and cannot truly give you an accuate description based on experience. However, I took the class with several individuals who have recieved a wide variety of training, and they remarked the same as I have. You'll also find the same comments from a wide variety of people on this board who claim the same.

For reference, the extent of my outside-of-GUE training has been OW, AOW, Rescue, and several specialties, including cavern, navigation, wreck and deep. Some of the people I took DIR-F with were PADI Master divers, and two of them were Master Instructors. Three of them were DM's... All through PADI, although two had gotten their original training through YMCA and SSI. If I'm not mistaken, there was also one that had extensive NAUI training. At about 120 dives at the time, I was the least trained of all the divers that took the DIR-F course with me. By the way, there were only four of us, including me... So all of that training was distributed over a few number of divers, hinting that each was fairly well educated and trained about diving.

...And there was the combined experience, too. Some of them had been diving for a few decades. I've been diving since 1986, but only got serious about it a year and a half ago. Don't laugh, now... That's when I got my first C-card. So I was officially a new diver, but already had lots of experience.

Anyway, to answer your question - I found that there were skills taught in DIR-F that WERE taught in PADI and NAUI classes. In fact, the notorious GI3 actually remarks on one of his videos, "If we could just get people to go back and review the PADI Open Water One manual, I think we'd all be better off." His implication was that DIR-F was not really "new" information, but rather a "mastery of the basics."

However, all of us involved in my DIR-F course did see new material that we'd never seen before. For us, it was more like a "piecing together of the puzzle" than either a "review of the basics" or completely new material. When I took my DIR-F course, I'd gone to great lengths to "piece the puzzle together already;" that is, I had already felt that my PADI training was lacking, and so I'd done research in books, on the internet, and in talking with more experienced divers. For me, DIR-F was wonderful in that it really filled in the missing pieces and found places for the puzzle pieces that I was unable to assemble on my own. The net result was one of, for the first time, really seeing "the big picture" when it came to diving.

...But my point above about "not having seen these skills before" isn't wholly incorrect... In fact, it's quite the opposite. For example, we spent all night Friday night (the first night of the class) understanding, from a mathematical standpoint, trim, buoyancy, and body position in the water. We touched on many aspects of diving which included not only a clearer understanding of the physics of diving (from trim and buoyancy to a little deco theory (preparation) to a better understanding of exactly how and why the recreational dive planner gives you the numbers it does. We talked about the theories behind the GUE recommended fin strokes, the body positioning, and yes, even gear configuration. It was an awesome time to bring up concerns for me, like, "Why dive with the computer/bottom timer on the right wrist?" "Why is the bottom dump on Halcyon wings on the wrong side?" "Why a backplate and wings," and so on. My questions were encouraged wholly, not discouraged, as one might expect. Heck, we even went over the correct placement of the D-rings on a rig and the bes way to "hit" them every time without fail. At midnight Friday night, a tired MHK and AndrewG. retired to their hotel room, but I stayed awake for hours in a darkened room, staring at the ceiling, mulling this awesome information over in my head.

Saturday and Sunday, we did things that WERE taught in my PADI courses, but never quite to that extent. They put me in 20' of water and told me to place myself horizontally... And stop moving. "Hang there," they said. "No problem," I thought. For the first time, someone watching me knew "good" from "bad," and I was horrible. I was really surprised that I could not do what they'd asked me to do. I was sure Friday night that I was fully capable. That just wasn't the case.

..If I had to answer your question with a short paragraph, I'd say that I was never taught anywhere close to the buoyancy control that DIR-F taught... And now that I have a better understanding, I can't imagine not having this tool to use in my daily diving. I was also taught trim, which was only briefly touched on in any of my PADI classes... And even at the Aquarium. The simplicity in thought, which leads to simple skills that can be mastered, a simple rig that is much more failure-resistant, and simple dive techniques and planning which are much less prone to failure... Well, none of those were touched on by any of my previous training.

MHK's reaction to my frustration - him saying, "You've never been trained with this stuff before," was accurate... Specifically, he was talking about the body position and the accuracy in buoyancy and trim which is one of the hallmarks of GUE training.

I hope that answers your question, and I hope that nobody takes it as inflammatory. Those were just my experiences... Others' mileage may vary.

Interestingly, I first caught a "glimpse" of my missing skills when I read the DIR Fundamentals book by JJ. Thus, if you're looking for more information on these skills, I would highly recommend reading that book. That's what a lot of people do that have questions about DIR-F. Frankly, the first time I read it, I silently made fun of it the whole time I read it... So you won't be alone in that regard. But I found two or three points which made sense to me... I found two or three little "fruits" which I found I might be able to incorporate into my diving. Having made fun of the book or not, it was worth the read just for those "fruits," I thought. However, the more I went along in my diving, the more I found myself referring back to that book for good ideas. It wasn't a huge leap for me to take the class "just to see what it's all about." I figured it was worth the investment if I could pick up a couple more "fruits."

The net result - and it didn't happen immediately - was that it changed my diving. When I go out diving with others, I'm the first one ready to dive, because my gear is simple and works every time. I never need to fiddle or mess around. I'm also the first one done cleaning my gear, as it's minimalist... I just rinse and go. Easy.

...And in reviewing the dives, I find that my comrades that are not familiar with this sort of diving style are busy talking about whatever issue they had... A weight problem, a current problem, an "I couldn't get down" problem, a leak, a mask flood, or whatever. They laugh and joke and say, "I wish that wouldn't have happened to me." My review of the dive typically is something like, "I wanna dive more. I don't do this enough. Man, that was fun." And nearly always, the person who was most taken aback by the backplate or long hose or the "where's your BC" comments... Now begins to ask questions. "Howcome you just hover like that?" (I tell him that I was waiting for them to catch up.) "Where did that lift bag come from?" "How much air did you have left??" "Howcome we can't get the marine life to come close to us?" "Man, SeaJay you were right there when so-and-so had that problem."

'Nuff said. I hope this hasn't come across arrogantly... It's not meant to be that way at all. Rather, it's a simple observation from an admittedly biased diver who's found a better way to dive. And it's your invitation to at least check it out.

...And no, I'm not connected to GUE's payroll. :D
 
LMAO
 
CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...
LMAO

Phillip,

Quick question, with all the various agencies that you hold instructor ratings in why are you so resistant to the possibility that DIR could offer something?

Obviously you don't hold any zeal to a particular agency. Just seems to me that someone with such a broad range of training and accreditation would be a little more open minded.

Just wondering...

Mark
 
I also don't have a big collection of "merit badges" either. I did a lot of diving in a very short time a decade ago, and I've just come back to it. So I'm no expert. But FWIW, here's my 2 cents.

I ordered the DIR-F book. I read it. I liked it. I should tell you I'm ex-military, and I like to target shoot a lot, so I don't have nearly the problem with "Just do it this way" that other folks seem to have. When I'm on the range with pistols, I want to see safe gun handling, thank you very much, and frankly I don't give a rat's behind if you think my methods are regimented. I also understand that a lot of folks who haven't had military training or done potentially dangerous stuff like shooting events where lots of folks you don't know are wandering around armed and shooting in your general vicinity, are not nearly so comfortable as I am with regimentation.

Having said that I don't think every recreational diver has to "BE DIR". Personally, I'm open minded enough to think that I probably would like a BP/Wings better than my current setup, but I'm perfectly happy with my current setup because it works well enough for my purposes and I don't think the differences are likely to be that great to justify my redoing my whole setup right now. Would I like their setup better? Probably. When I get the dough I'll probably switch over. There's entirely too much smoke and heat over the DIR equipment stuff, IMHO, and we miss much of what they have to offer because of it.

What I find valuable in DIR concepts is their thinking about things, their mindset, if you will. The long hose and giving your primary to an OOA diver, for example. Makes all the sense in the world to me. I'm putting a 5 foot hose on my primary for this reason right now. I'm not replacing my perfectly good Seatec Manta and Scubapro AirII though, at least not until I get my daughter certified and do a dive trip with her. Then, if I can get the budget past the boss, I will likely get more DIR equipment. So I'm not DIR. Who cares? The thinking they caused me to do about OOA and getting me to get the longer hose is a good thing, I think, and not diminished at all because I'm not making the jump to full DIR all in one fell swoop. I've gained by making something of DIR mine.

I also train in martial arts. While we do all kinds of fancy crap in class that I wouldn't do on the street, I enjoy the fancy crap for the fun of it. But every class starts with warm up, exercises,and BASIC DRILL. Every Class. Every rank. The third degree black belts start out every class that way, so does the white belt. Low block. Punch. Front kick. After that they go on to different levels of fancy crap, depending on rank and experience. I liken the DIR "Fundamentals" to basic drill. Practice the simple basic stuff, as often as possible. It makes you better at the "fancy crap". It's human nature when one becomes skilled to want to avoid drilling the basics. We think "We're too good for that." I like the emphasis on basic drill in my martial arts training because the humility and discipline it instills in me carries over into other aspects of my life. Same with the things I learned in the military and while shooting.

Man, this is getting windy. Where am I going with this? I think my PADI training was good. I think NAUI training is good (instructors are more important than the organization, of course). I think DIR is good, even though I haven't replaced all my equipment at once and joined the cult. (just joking! I like you DIR guys, I'm just kidding!). But I think they bring something very, very valuable to diving. That's an appreciation of and respect for the basics, that many folks have--perhaps--lost touch with. I'm not paranoid, I love diving, but I like the way DIR folks bring a disciplined mindset to diving, about planning, about dive buddy discipline, about equipment discipline, about technique discipline. It's a good thing.

Now, as Cincy said, GO OUT AND ENJOY DIVING. Don't feel like DIR folks completely disrespect what you've accomplished so far (I don't think most of them do, BTW), and think about some of the things they offer and incorporate whatever you find of value there that will make you a better diver and enjoy it more. If you like diving your jacket BC but think a long hose makes a lot of sense (like me) adopt the long hose and be happy with your jacket BC and have fun diving. DIR disciples could be a little less obstreperous about equipment for recreational divers and non-DIR folks could quit acting like someone just pissed in their corn flakes every time they read a DIR equipment post, and we could all learn a lot from what DIR has to offer.

At least I think so.
 
Mark,

When did I say I was resistant to DIR? That's what I thought. I'm very open minded to most things. However; when it comes to BP/Wings I have in fact been there and done that. I've said that to many times in this subject. Anyway, it's a dead issue now.

I'm very happy with my agencies teaching policies and there skill requirements. My students turn out just fine and love to dive and continue to dive when possible.

Col. Custer,

My quote of "LMAO" was at the picture not the novel above that last post...Nothing more...Now I am LMAO again.

Later
 
CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...
Mark,

When did I say I was resistant to DIR? That's what I thought. I'm very open minded to most things. However; when it comes to BP/Wings I have in fact been there and done that. I've said that to many times in this subject. Anyway, it's a dead issue now.

I'm very happy with my agencies teaching policies and there skill requirements. My students turn out just fine and love to dive and continue to dive when possible.

Col. Custer,

My quote of "LMAO" was at the picture not the novel above that last post...Nothing more...Now I am LMAO again.

Later

My apologizes for not interpreting your "LMAO" correctly. It is rather vague.

I went back and re-read your post and you have only complained about the BP/wing issue.

I take it you only dive recreationally and do no tech diving?

I can see where teaching a lot via the PADI, SSI, NAUI, etc, method would make more sense to only dive with a jacket.

Just curious what about a BP/wing or for that matter a back inflate BC do you not like?

Not trying to troll. I've only borrowed a BP/wing for a few dives and I must say I liked the balance and trim better.
 
CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...

Col. Custer,

My quote of "LMAO" was at the picture not the novel above that last post...Nothing more...Now I am LMAO again.

Later

Sure.
 
I thought this was going to be more than it is.

The original question being "how well is GUE/DIR marketed through out the world?"

I reckon - and don't shoot me for this as it is only my opinion - 99.9% of the worlds certified divers have never heard of it if you take out the web divers out there....

If I had not stumbled upon this board I would never of heard of it in my neck of the woods.

Having said that - MHK if you or any of your friends are heading to Tokyo please let me know as I already 4 people interested in trying DIR-F.....

Jonathan
 
mgri once bubbled...


My apologizes for not interpreting your "LMAO" correctly. It is rather vague.

I went back and re-read your post and you have only complained about the BP/wing issue.

I take it you only dive recreationally and do no tech diving?

I can see where teaching a lot via the PADI, SSI, NAUI, etc, method would make more sense to only dive with a jacket.

Just curious what about a BP/wing or for that matter a back inflate BC do you not like?

Not trying to troll. I've only borrowed a BP/wing for a few dives and I must say I liked the balance and trim better.

I did a lot of cave diving in the early 90's with 94-95 being the climax on that. I did some silly stuff back then. I love to wreck now with minimum penatration. I'm 100% out of the cave diving now, especially since I'm married. When I was single I would do about anything.

As far as the BP/Wings, it was nice to dive with doubles. Your nice and balanced undewater. However, it's just not pratical for the type of diving I'm doing now. The jacket styles are so much simpler to maintain when your on the run. And they dive just fine.
 
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