Just curious about how well marketed "GUE" concept is in various parts of the world?

[GreenDiverDown]

Don't put me on your..."he's an idiot list" just quite yet.

I'm a big fan of DIR...all aspects of it. Perhaps I've contradicted myself...it wouldn't be the first time...but I don't think that I've done so.

But please don't paraphrase what I have said...or for that matter...please don't misquote what I have written.

The correct quote would have been, "The DIR-F book doesn't actually advertise Halcyon...well not directly, anyways."

You see, I put the - "well not directly, anyways" - there for a reason. The book rarely mentions Halcyon directly and even when it does it provides some balance by also mentioning other manufactures that make a similar product that would meet the recommendations. Here's an example: "Rubber knobs - like those found on the Halcyon manifold - are very robust, while softer plastic knobs - such as those found on the Scubapro manifold - also seem to resist breaking." p89

Yet, there is no arguing that the book makes very specific recommendations on just exactly what is appropriate DIR gear. Even though it doesn't make many specific manufacturer recommendations the end result benefits Halcyon - a leader in the manufacturing of DIR gear. I personally don't have a problem with that. Like I said, I love the stuff! But I bet that I wouldn't have bought all of that gear if I hadn't read this book or learned about DIR and found much of what it suggests to be great advice.

Don't be so naive not to see that promoting DIR serves Halcyon's purpose. It's part of their trade mark for goodness sake. It's "almost brilliant."

"You then say that the book is 2/3 fluff, but that you've read it several times. I don't get it."

That of course is not what I said either. The correct quote is, "More than one third of the book is dedicated to equipment with a lot of the rest being arguably fluff." That is quite a bit different than what you have suggested that I said. A large portion of the book is about gear. And, yes, a lot of the rest is "arguably fluff.” Sorry…that’s how I see it. We can go into that if you want.

“Anyway, I've read the Fundamentals Book, several times, and found it very informative.”

Me, too!

“Sorry that you and he didn't garnish anything from it, but I guess reading's all in the comprehension.”

I don’t know what Brian did or didn’t get from the book but I got a lot out of it. I’m not sure why you would suggest that I didn’t.

SA

 

[Custer]

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...
While I don't take issue with JJ promoting his own company in the book (why shouldn't he, they're great products?) ... it's misleading to say that it doesn't happen.

I never said that he didn't mention his own company. I took exception to the book being described as a rolling advertisement, which it isn't.

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...
Getting back to the audience specified by the paragraph you quoted ... if the manual is written for any diver, at any level, why does JJ bring up the practice of doubling up burst disks in scuba cylinders (page 62)? That's a patently unsafe practice for any but the most trained of technical divers (who have gained the requisite knowledge to be able to blend their own gases on their own compressors and have been trained to rigorously maintain their valves and cylinders).

Frankly, I don't see how you can qualify that as being safe for certain levels of training. It's the guy that fills tanks that will be killed (that would be me), and it's a practice I don't utilize. Like solo diving and other increased risk practices, however, the chances of it ever being a problem are beyond a million to one. And I think that you'll find very few people exclusively fill their own tanks with their own gear, but we digress.

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled... Again, I don't have any particular issue with him doing so ... but I think it's an honest assessment of what's in the book, from an "outsider's" perspective.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

You can't be more of an outsider than me. I'm not DIR, nor will I ever be.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

I have no doubt that MHK is sensitive to these issues and responsibly recommends appropriate gear in his classes without favoring a particular manufacturer. I'm sure that he makes an extra effort not to promote Halcyon when he is in a shop that does't carry that line. Perhaps he never promotes Halcyon. Perhaps other GUE instructor are like-minded.

Nevertheless, Halcyon benefits by he promotion of DIR. I don't have a problem with that...not as long as they continue to make great stuff.

Is it all part of JJ's plan?

I don't know. But if he worked all of this out so that he could make a buck in the scuba industry then he's "almost brilliant."

And the best part is that he very well could have come up with all of this with nothing but the best intentions of improving diver training.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

I think that there is a lot that JJ might now wish he had left out.

I know when I was organizing a DIRF class I wasn't too excited about sharing some of the stuff in the first two chapters with the owner of my shop - the guy that I was courting to sponsor the class.

"Uh...just ignore that part." "They don't mean it." "They're not talkin' about our shop."

SA

 

[detroit diver]

Stephen Ash once bubbled...
....
Nevertheless, Halcyon benefits by he promotion of DIR. I don't have a problem with that...not as long as they continue to make great stuff.

Is it all part of JJ's plan?

I don't know. But if he worked all of this out so that he could make a buck in the scuba industry then he's "almost brilliant."

And the best part is that he very well could have come up with all of this with nothing but the best intentions of improving diver training.

Halcyon does benefit, but so does DiveRite, Oxycheq, OMS, FredT, Scott Koplin, and a host of others that are too numerous to mention.

I guess my problems was the same as Custer's- that of DIR and GUE being a rolling adverstisement for Halcyon. It's just not the case.

Based on my conversations with AG and MHK, and reading various posts on the 'net, it is very clear to me that Halcyon was started because they couldn't find a manufacturer to produce the type of product that was needed in the demanding type of diving that was done. But it's like any other manufacturer-you have to have a quality product, priced competetively, in order to make money and stay in business. If these criteria were not adhered to, they would lose customers and just fade away. That hasn't happened, so they must be doing something right. And it's not promotion-if that were the case MHK, AG, the scuabaguys.com and every other instructor would be fired!

 

[GreenDiverDown]

"Halcyon does benefit, but so does DiveRite, Oxycheq, OMS, FredT, Scott Koplin, and a host of others that are too numerous to mention."

Without a doubt!

"I guess my problems was the same as Custer's- that of DIR and GUE being a rolling adverstisement for Halcyon. It's just not the case."

I can't speak for Brian but I didn't get the impression that he was saying this. I think that he was saying that SOME of the charges relating to self-promotion that some people level against PADI could equally be said of GUE. Neither are really as guilty as some would have us believe.

SA

 

[detroit diver]

Stephen Ash once bubbled...
.............I think that he was saying that SOME of the charges relating to self-promotion that some people level against PADI could equally be said of GUE. Neither are really as guilty as some would have us believe.

SA

They're not even in the same league in terms of promotion. The PADI OW class purposely holds back critical skills so that they can sell you another class. There's a c-card for scratching your as* underwater (well, almost)! As I understand it, the instructor course even teaches you how to promot and sell these classes to your students. Great for the instructor and shop.......

That ain't happening at GUE.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Of course not!

That's why I put "some" in bold print.

SA


I'm not sure that I'd agree with: "The PADI OW class purposely holds back critical skills so that they can sell you another class. There's a c-card for scratching your as* underwater (well, almost)!"

But that's another thread.

Oh...the c-card for scratching your as* underwater has some pretty tough requirements. The most feared is the "Warhammer Manuever".

You remember that one, DD.




SA

 

[detroit diver]

Stephen Ash once bubbled...
Of course not!

That's why I put "some" in bold print.

SA


I'm not sure that I'd agree with: "The PADI OW class purposely holds back critical skills so that they can sell you another class. There's a c-card for scratching your as* underwater (well, almost)!"

But that's another thread.

Oh...the c-card for scratching your as* underwater has some pretty tough requirements. The most feared is the "Warhammer Manuever".

You remember that one, DD.




SA

Remember? It's imprinted in my cornea! That was a classic. I wonder whatever happened to that guy?

 

[GreenDiverDown]

One too many Warhammers...I guess.


SA