Jon Lines & clips

[Charlie99]

http://www.ldsleather.com/snapstyles.html

The difference between a panic snap and a bolt snap is that when you slide the collar down, the entire loop falls in half, and doesn't leave a J hook at the end, so it doesn't matter how much tension it's under.

That panic snap looks like it would be a great clip for the diver end of a reef hook or jon line. Is it prone to unintentional opening? How hard is it to slide the release collar when under tension?

Thanks,

Charlie

 

[KrisB]

That panic snap looks like it would be a great clip for the diver end of a reef hook or jon line. Is it prone to unintentional opening? How hard is it to slide the release collar when under tension?

Thanks,

Charlie

I think that would be a perfect use for it -- it looks like clipping something with it would take a fair bit of effort (several independant motions).

I don't think it would be too hard to open when under tension -- there would be a bit of friction between the release and the gate, but nothing that wouldn't be easy enough to overcome.

 

[DiveGolfSki]

I think that would be a perfect use for it -- it looks like clipping something with it would take a fair bit of effort (several independant motions).

I don't think it would be too hard to open when under tension -- there would be a bit of friction between the release and the gate, but nothing that wouldn't be easy enough to overcome.

KrisB and Charlie99

I've been in Eastern Mountain Sports and other "mountaineering stores" trying to see what climbers use to clip on lines on a static (right term?) line like an anchor or buoy line. Haven't found one yet but this looks interesting. I wonder what diameter line can it be used on? Also, the site shows availability in brass or chrome. The former is okay for saltwater but I wonder if they got it in SS. I've emailed them questions on this.

 

[KrisB]

climbers will generally use a carabiner of some sort to clip to anything. There are a few different types, but loosely summarized:

1. locking gate
2. wire gate
3. bent gate
4. straight gate

There are also two popular shapes (with variations, of course):
1. oval
2. 'D'
3. pear

The locking carabiners are used in securing the belayer and belay station (their gates won't open without some form of secondary deliberate action -- the most popular is a screw action).

The wire gates are used anywhere a bent or straight gate is used -- usually a little stiffer of an action, but they save weight. This is key when you're racking 50+ of them.

The straight gates are used to clip to protection (bolts, cams, nuts) connected to a quickdraw (short piece of sewn webbing) that has either a straight gate or a bent gate on the other end, where it connects to the rope.

Bent gate 'biners are *only* used for the rope end of a quickdraw. They were designed to make it easier to clip the rope in.

Now, as for the two shapes:
1. the oval shape is generally restricted to aid climbing and pulley-using. Because of the engineering limitations, they are generally weaker than the 'D' shape.

2. the 'd' shape (and variations) are used for most applications and make a good "universal" carabiner

3. the pear shape 'biners are used primarily (exclusively?) for a belay and almost always locking carabiners.

For a selection of these (and more):
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_...&product_listing_all=true&bmUID=1115824992250

 

[Puck]

I couldn't tell how the panic snap opens -- is there a release button, or is it based on tension?

I just saw a basket of these at a surplus store yesterday down the aisle from some $1.99 EMT shears (I bought 5). The panic snaps are pretty simple. You pull/slide the square part in the middle (note the ridges for gripping power) away from the end that opens, and as you do, the hook portion pops open. The store had them with some other hooks/hasps/etc for horse gear, in all sors of sizes.

 

[jonnythan]

Actually, the "suicide clip" isn't exactly a climbing carabiner.

The true suicide clip is a "quick snap" or "cap snap" clip -- see here: http://www.lacledechain.com/hardware/acessbrasnap.html for pictures of several formats.

The problem with the suicide clip is its propensity to fill the clip's body with more material than can be unclipped, as there is no space behind the gate to bunch material. Climbing carabiners, on the other hand, can rarely be filled with more than you can easily unclip -- that's part of their design.

Typically, also, the climbing carabiner takes a lot more force to open the gate -- not just a brush up against something, but a definite force to clip it.

With that in mind, I feel more comfortable using carabiners than bolt clips -- if you have to get a bolt clip undone in a hurry, you can run into difficulties... I have. Also, if the bolt clip's lever breaks off (seen that more than once), you are up the creek without a paddle... not someplace I'd like to be with a limited timeframe.

Cheers,

You have climbing biners all wrong.

Biners are very easy to open, by design. Smack the spine of one against your hand and listen to the snap of the gate. They're also designed only to hold one piece of rope or webbing. They can hold *much* more than you can effectively get out. If you swing the gate open, the area *above* the free end of the gate is all the room you have to fit stuff to get out.

Bolt snaps are MUCH stiffer

 

[DiveGolfSki]

I just saw a basket of these at a surplus store yesterday down the aisle from some $1.99 EMT shears (I bought 5). The panic snaps are pretty simple. You pull/slide the square part in the middle (note the ridges for gripping power) away from the end that opens, and as you do, the hook portion pops open. The store had them with some other hooks/hasps/etc for horse gear, in all sors of sizes.

I haven't heard from that company Charlie99 provided a link (asked questions on those panic snaps) on so maybe you can shed some light on this. How thick a rope can the hook portion clip onto (do they come in different sizes?). Is the snap easy to open with thick gloves? What about material... ss or brass?

 

[Puck]

The ones I saw were brass, and came in maybe 3 sizes. The largest MAY have been 7/8" or 2.5 cm. But this was a surplus store, so there were boxes of marbles, test tubes, rolls of felt, 30 kinds of magnets, small motors, and kites in the same area. I am sure that you can find other sizes at a more conventional retailer.

Easy to get open with a glove, but I do not know about closing them -- might be easy to get a glove caught in them.

 

[KrisB]

You have climbing biners all wrong.

Biners are very easy to open, by design. Smack the spine of one against your hand and listen to the snap of the gate. They're also designed only to hold one piece of rope or webbing. They can hold *much* more than you can effectively get out. If you swing the gate open, the area *above* the free end of the gate is all the room you have to fit stuff to get out.

Bolt snaps are MUCH stiffer

jonnythan,

I am aware that it's the area above the free end of the gate that all the room to get stuff out each time you open the gate -- you may have to do your removal process twice, but that's life.

I would challenge you to overstuff a carabiner to the point where you can't get everything out, using *only* the gate to insert stuff (no threading it like a needle). When you come up with a suitable configuration, let me know, because I'm very interested in that!

(and another correction -- they're typically used to hold together at least two pieces of rope or webbing, and sometimes more, depending on the application)

On the topic of bolt snaps: they make me excessively nervous whenever I see them. I don't know why -- I've never had a life-threatening experience with them -- but it seems they have a nasty habit of various issues. The issues I've experienced:

1. broken thumb button (impossible to get open without prying something between the gate and body)

2. broken spring (no longer clips to anything)

3. gloves impeding access to the thumb button (it slips out of the grip, you can't grip it, etc.)

The only downside (that I'm convinced of) to the carabiner is that the tension it will take to break it is likely beyond even the panic force of an individual!

Also -- I would advocate the use of wire gates for this application for two reasons:

1. they're usually harder to open (less chance of having something threaded)
2. they can be disassembled if necessary, given only a prying tool (and everyone has a dive knife, right?).

 

[jonnythan]

I've seen dozens of carabiners with broken gate springs (many wire gates avoid this by using the wire as the spring), but never a bolt snap. And if you can break the button off a steel bolt snap, I'm impressed... but hey, that's why you should use nylon line to tie everything to anything made of metal. If the opening mechanism fails and you need to disconnect, you cut the line.