Jon Lines & clips

[KrisB]

Most of the Jon lines I've seen on the net use some sort of carabiner or other clip that can't be removed under tension with one hand

Wouldn't it be better to use something like a panic snap http://www.kvvet.com/KVVet/productr.asp?pf_id=91582
(used for horses) so it could be released with one hand?

Terry

I couldn't tell how the panic snap opens -- is there a release button, or is it based on tension?

A carabiner can actually be released (with practice), one-handed and under tension. The key is practice. It's unlikely that the jon-line tension would be more than an individual could actually pull against for a momentary movement -- most people can lift their own body weight the inch or so that would be needed.

 

[Web Monkey]

I couldn't tell how the panic snap opens -- is there a release button, or is it based on tension?

A carabiner can actually be released (with practice), one-handed and under tension. The key is practice. It's unlikely that the jon-line tension would be more than an individual could actually pull against for a momentary movement -- most people can lift their own body weight the inch or so that would be needed.

It's a little hard to describe, so here's a picture of one open and closed:
http://www.ldsleather.com/snapstyles.html

The difference between a panic snap and a bolt snap is that when you slide the collar down, the entire loop falls in half, and doesn't leave a J hook at the end, so it doesn't matter how much tension it's under.

Terry

 

[Stirling]

Actually, the "suicide clip" isn't exactly a climbing carabiner.
...

The problem with the suicide clip is its propensity to fill the clip's body with more material than can be unclipped, as there is no space behind the gate to bunch material. Climbing carabiners, on the other hand, can rarely be filled with more than you can easily unclip -- that's part of their design.

Typically, also, the climbing carabiner takes a lot more force to open the gate -- not just a brush up against something, but a definite force to clip it.

....
Cheers,

The reason that climbing carabiners are rarely jammed up with more than you can easily unclip is that they are designed to be used with climbing ropes, which are rarely more than 11mm in diameter (and most carabiner gate openings are twice that size). If you take a carabiner into the ocean and clip into a substantial mooring line or anchor line or railing (or whatever) on a submerged wreck, it will have all the properties of a "suicide clip" - and can easily get jammed up over something that you can't unclip easily or quickly.

Just look at the design of any carabiner - imagine the gate swinging open; the size of the opening created by depressing the gate (the space between the open end of the carabiner and the end of the gate) determines what it will take to jam it. The thing that will jam a carabiner is a lot smaller than the internal diameter of the carabiner. The climbing carabiners on this REI site show - for each carabiner if you click on its particular name - the "gate open clearance" which is approximately the width of the object that will barely fit through the gate and then jam it so you can't get it back out. Most of these are at 22-25 mm, which is about twice the diameter of an 11 mm climbing rope.
http://www.rei.com/category/4500681.htm?vcat=REI_SSHP_CLIMBING_TOC

All of that being said, I carry a very long sewn runner (a big loop of webbing formed by sewing the ends together) with two assymetrical D carabiners (with relatively wide gate openings), more or less similar to the Black Diamond Hotwire Anodized Carabiner shown on the REI site. It has several potential uses. But I would not clip the runner to a submerged object *and* to myself; you can clip it to something else and hold the runner like a leash, so you can always just let go.

 

[KrisB]

The reason that climbing carabiners are rarely jammed up with more than you can easily unclip is that they are designed to be used with climbing ropes, which are rarely more than 11mm in diameter (and most carabiner gate openings are twice that size). If you take a carabiner into the ocean and clip into a substantial mooring line or anchor line or railing (or whatever) on a submerged wreck, it will have all the properties of a "suicide clip" - and can easily get jammed up over something that you can't unclip easily or quickly.

While you are correct in the basic facts, I don't think your conclusion is correct -- with a climbing 'biner, the largest object you can get in is also the largest you can remove.

This should be true for a bolt snap, too, but doesn't seem to be, due to the way there is no space behind the gate.

Something that could be compared is the gate opening to clip body ratio on the two options -- I think you'll find the carabiner has much more room inside for it's gate opening... meaning you can move multiple large objects around inside it.

 

[Stirling]

While you are correct in the basic facts, I don't think your conclusion is correct -- with a climbing 'biner, the largest object you can get in is also the largest you can remove.

This should be true for a bolt snap, too, but doesn't seem to be, due to the way there is no space behind the gate.

Something that could be compared is the gate opening to clip body ratio on the two options -- I think you'll find the carabiner has much more room inside for it's gate opening... meaning you can move multiple large objects around inside it.

Yes, you can move multiple large objects around inside a carabiner, but that isn't the problem. The problem is that one big object. I agree that the biggest thing that can get in through the gate is also the biggest thing that can get back out through the same gate. But, in fact, that is also true of any suicide clip - nothing passes through the clip that isn't small enough to back out; it's just that backing it out is not easily accomplished if the diameter of the line (or whatever) is close to the size of the opening. If the gate clearance is 24 mm, a 24 mm mooring line will just pass through the gate. But I think it is a mistake to imagine that it will be easy to back it out. And a 25 or 26 mm line may pass through a 24 mm gate because a woven line is flexible; but that doesn't mean you're going to get it back out through the gate without a struggle. It may move around very freely once it is inside the carabiner behind the gate, because the interior diameter of the carabiner is much bigger than the gate clearance. But it won't go easily back through the gate, and that's what you need to unclip the carabiner.

On edit: Here's a picture of a couple of suicide clips -
http://www.divingdirectshop.co.uk/acatalog/clips.gif
With respect to the properties that we are concerned with, they are indistinguishable from a climbing carabiner. A line that would pass easily through the gate of the larger suicide clip would jam inside the smaller clip; but a larger line would do the same thing in the larger clip, or in a carabiner. The only difference is in the size of the line (or whatever) that will barely fit through the gate.

 

[dive]

While you are correct in the basic facts, I don't think your conclusion is correct -- with a climbing 'biner, the largest object you can get in is also the largest you can remove.

You are wrong a climbing carabineer can become and jammed and very hard to get whatever is in it out and it can get hooked on something without you wanting it to then you are trying to figure out that problem.

 

[gpatton]

Oh, yeah. Sorry about that.

I am still wondering if there will ever be an answer to the question why somebody who reached the surface and was apparently holding on to a buoy ended up on the bottom after trying to swim to the boat. If the BC was functioning properly, the biggest question in my mind is why it wasn't inflated. If the diver was distressed when he was holding on the buoy, all the more reason to get positive buoyancy before letting go. I just don't get it.

IMHO the conversation about clips and how to deal with the STRONG currents on the Spiegel or anywhere a strong current might be encounter, very appropriate to this thread. IMHO, the current was a factor that contributed to the accident. This conversation is about learning what may have contributed to this accident without pointing fingers at individuals and to promote safety under similar diving circumstances so that other accident can be prevented.

I am offering this info and photos to promote safety while diving the Spiegel Grove or any other offshore dive because of the STRONG currents that you may encounter. Diving in strong current is a diving circumstance that offshore divers need to be prepared for. In my opinion, a strong current is probably the most difficult & dangerous environmental circumstance that diver will face while diving offshore.....

An earlier post was concerned about jamming a line in a clip, this is a definite problem, here is some possible solutions…

When using this type of clip be careful not to jam a big ascent line into the clip. If it is difficult to put the line into the clip because of tight fit, it will be difficult to get the line out of the clip. However, remember that there are three (3) chances to quickly get away from a ascent line that you are clipped to;

1. open the clip and remove the line
2. use the quick release on the webbing of the clip
3. use the quick release on your BC's shoulder adjustment webbing.



Click here for a webpage about the use of the clips and photos

There is no substitute for being very familiar with your equipment through training and practice. And there is certainly on substitute for common sense....

 

[pickens_46929]

However, remember that there are three (3) chances to quickly get away from a ascent line that you are clipped to;

1. open the clip and remove the line
2. use the quick release on the webbing of the clip
3. use the quick release on your BC's shoulder adjustment webbing.

Don't forget you should **ALWAYS** be able to **CUT** your way out as well. Never put metal on metal on metal. One thing that Cavern training taught me is to always be able to cut your way out of something.

You do carry shears and/or a small knife right?

Shears give you leverage in situations where a knife might not be best. They are cheap and you don't feel like you've lost something expensive if you lose them. Knives also have their uses as well. Carry both!

Dave

 

[gpatton]

Don't forget you should **ALWAYS** be able to **CUT** your way out as well. Never put metal on metal on metal. One thing that Cavern training taught me is to always be able to cut your way out of something.

You do carry shears and/or a small knife right?

Shears give you leverage in situations where a knife might not be best. They are cheap and you don't feel like you've lost something expensive if you lose them. Knives also have their uses as well. Carry both!

Dave

I agree completely, but IMO cutting was not a "quick" solution to gettig away. I carry a large very sharp titanium knife.... I don't carry shears because I don't go in caves or tight places.

Glenn

 

[lamont]

i'm not sure about those plastic quick releases. there's a piece of marine equipment (for anchor lines or rigging?) which is a metal quick release that will come apart even when under tension that i've read about being used for jon lines. anyone know what i'm talking about?