Jon Lines & clips

[MB]

Editor's note: This thread is split off from a thread about an accident in the Keys

I'm going to go to the local climbing store and buy two carabiners and some webbing/rope to make something to attach to a buoy or line if need be. Anyone have any suggestions for something similar?

That's probably a poor choice. Trying to hang on to a buoy or line at the surface against a current will put you through a tough experience. Clipping on means you spend the entire time being beaten up as current tries to push you away from your locked position. ooops - there goes the mask - ooops now my hoses are tangled... Crap, six other people just arrived to hold onto this buoy and now I can't get out of this tangled web... Even a moderate current of 1/2 knot or so will beat you up after a few minutes.

Better to have a sausage, line, the skill to deploy it, and the mental preparation to ride a current for a while. Set your direction to stay on the buoy path, or angle toward another boat, or follow a predetermined compass setting. Don't fight currents, and tieing yourself to a tree seldom helps.

 

[MB]

My previous post referred to clipping youself off at the surface. I'll note that you can do this on a safety stop with a bit more success. Because you are completely submerged and you have a bit more mobility, tieing off to an upline can be handy for a few minutes, but even this can get ouit of control in a stronger current. I've seen many masks eaten by a current while people were flying on a line. On numerous occasions divers in these conditions have tied on to a line at a stop, but then released and gone with the current once they hit the surface.

Important point: the protocol should be part of the briefing. A pre-dive briefing is a good thing! (Hey somebody smack that clown and tell him to listen to the briefing - the captain does this for a living.)

 

[DiveGolfSki]

Secondly, Jager, the piece of rigging that you're looking for is called a Jonline, and can be made from a 6' piece of braided nylon rope and two sliding bolt clips. You can also purchase them pre-made. (I think DiveRite sells one in a little pouch.) One note about climbing carabiners - they're sometimes called "suicide clips" due to their tendency to attach to cables and rigging underwater in an unpredictable fashion. The sliding bolt clip is much more reliable. You can use them to attach to the bouy/anchor line to take some of the strain off of your arms when doing a safety/deco stop in heavy current.

-Grier

Grier,

You're spot on regarding the suicide clips and using a jonline instead.

Jager,

Aside from emergency situations, the JonLine would be good during deco on an anchor line. Here's picture that illustrates it:

http://www.scubaboard.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/11698/cat/514/page/22

 

[gpatton]

Grier,

You're spot on regarding the suicide clips and using a jonline instead.

Jager,

Which ever method someone uses to attach to an ascent line great caution should be used... I have revised my dive tips with the help of David Pickens.... Thanks

http://www.glennpatton.com/Spiegel/Diving_tips.htm

Here is some of the Spiegel Grove dive tips;

A HANDS FREE DIVE

1. If the current is running, make sure you keep both hands free. I even have a carabineer clip attached to my BC by 6 inches of nylon webbing.​

2. The clip is there so I can clip onto the descent line just in case I need to use both hands. You might need both hand to put your mask back on if it is knocked off by the current! It is kind of hard to put your mask on with one hand.....​

3. Clipping to the ascent line can prevent being swept away by the current.
Note use caution - - - Clipping to the buoy line should be done only in extreme circumstances when you got to have both hands free or can't hold on any longer. And definitely not too close to the buoy. Some dive shops carry SS clips.... Also, I have wrapped my leg around the line in a "S" configuration to stabilize myself if I clip to the line, if you don't you can twist all over the place in the current. The "S" configuration wrap is handy even when not attached to the ascent line when you have long safety stops when ascending.. ​

Let me know, if there might be other important tips that might be included on the list...

Glenn

 

[KrisB]

First of all, I'd like to commend John for his comments here. John, I hope that you realize that nobody's placing blame on you or your crew, just trying to understand the events that took place and learn from them. Likewise, nobody's being critical of Vickie for reporting on the incident.

Secondly, Jager, the piece of rigging that you're looking for is called a Jonline, and can be made from a 6' piece of braided nylon rope and two sliding bolt clips. You can also purchase them pre-made. (I think DiveRite sells one in a little pouch.) One note about climbing carabiners - they're sometimes called "suicide clips" due to their tendency to attach to cables and rigging underwater in an unpredictable fashion. The sliding bolt clip is much more reliable. You can use them to attach to the bouy/anchor line to take some of the strain off of your arms when doing a safety/deco stop in heavy current.

-Grier

Actually, the "suicide clip" isn't exactly a climbing carabiner.

The true suicide clip is a "quick snap" or "cap snap" clip -- see here: http://www.lacledechain.com/hardware/acessbrasnap.html for pictures of several formats.

The problem with the suicide clip is its propensity to fill the clip's body with more material than can be unclipped, as there is no space behind the gate to bunch material. Climbing carabiners, on the other hand, can rarely be filled with more than you can easily unclip -- that's part of their design.

Typically, also, the climbing carabiner takes a lot more force to open the gate -- not just a brush up against something, but a definite force to clip it.

With that in mind, I feel more comfortable using carabiners than bolt clips -- if you have to get a bolt clip undone in a hurry, you can run into difficulties... I have. Also, if the bolt clip's lever breaks off (seen that more than once), you are up the creek without a paddle... not someplace I'd like to be with a limited timeframe.

Cheers,

 

[gpatton]

Actually, the "suicide clip" isn't exactly a climbing carabiner.

Cheers,

The type of clip that I use is similar to one available at WorldWaterSports.com

Called item#15079 Quick Release Webbing w/Carabiner $6.99
Top Features - Large Carabiner for easy access with or without gloves.

Click here to see the "Quick Release Carabiner" clip with webbing

Glenn

 

[KrisB]

The type of clip that I use is similar to one available at WorldWaterSports.com

Called item#15079 Quick Release Webbing w/Carabiner $6.99
Top Features - Large Carabiner for easy access with or without gloves.

Click here to see the "Quick Release Carabiner" clip with webbing

Glenn

what is "Quick Release Webbing" ? Is it two pieces velcroed together (yes, I am serious -- this is often used as a fall arrestor when you don't trust your placements)?

While that isn't a true climbing carabiner (it appears similar to the ones you get with keychains, sports drinks, etc.) it is the same idea. I prefer these: http://www.bdel.com/gear/micron.php -- while not shock-rated for climbing, they are nearly identical to http://www.bdel.com/gear/hotwire.php but half the price...

 

[GrierHPharmD]

Thanks for the correction on the climbing carabiners vs. cap snap clips. Looked like some good resources for them also. As for me, I'll stick with the sliding bolt clips, but keep your advice re: bolt breakage in mind. I use marine brass ones (get them at the local hardware for around $1 each, and use them on most of my gear, per Gary Gentile, GUE, etc.

The ones that you listed looked fine for a jonline. In fact, that's the type of clip on the DiveRight line:http://www.diveriteexpress.com/tools/cutting.shtml#jonline

Bottom line is to use something that you're comfortable with, and practice using it in calm conditions, so that when things get bad, deploying the line will be second nature.

I don't want to go too far discussing gear options on this thread, but wouldn't mind discussing them in the appropriate forums, just to see what other folks are doing...

-G

 

[MoonWrasse]

Well, I'm sure intrigued by this as a potential bit of "safety" gear to tuck in my BCD pocket. Is there another thread already open on this to continue discussion?

 

[Web Monkey]

Thanks for the correction on the climbing carabiners vs. cap snap clips. Looked like some good resources for them also. As for me, I'll stick with the sliding bolt clips, but keep your advice re: bolt breakage in mind. I use marine brass ones (get them at the local hardware for around $1 each, and use them on most of my gear, per Gary Gentile, GUE, etc.
-G

Most of the Jon lines I've seen on the net use some sort of carabiner or other clip that can't be removed under tension with one hand

Wouldn't it be better to use something like a panic snap http://www.kvvet.com/KVVet/productr.asp?pf_id=91582
(used for horses) so it could be released with one hand?

Terry