Japanese open fire on Sea Shepherd crew

[Geoff_H]

I agree that every life form is valuable and none must be wasted. Again, nobody needs to hunt whales. Whales are a part of the natural balance. They eat massive amounts of food because there is a balance and there aren't that many of them. Killing them needlessly IS wasting them.

I don't see how killing something to eat is wasteful?

You can equally argue nobody needs to eat beef, chicken and pigs.

I think the average whale has a much better life than the average factory farmed chicken.

Anyone truely interested in relieving animal suffering would do a lot better to concentrate on the big picture - hw many chickens a year are factory farmed and killed in America? Tens of millions? More? Makes a few hundred whales a year pale into insignificance.

If you think whales are too intelligent to be killed (never seen any evidence of that myself) then I think you should focus your attention on the bush meat trade in Africa... many more monkeys are killed each year than whales. Or how about the Koreans and Chinese who eat man's best friend, dogs? Or French who eat highly sensitive and intelligent horses?

 

[DennisS]

Just so we are clear, this was an attempted assassination.

Jeff

or a publicity stunt

 

[Geoff_H]

Just so we are clear, this was an attempted assassination.

Jeff

I don't think that is clear at all. In fact it flies in the face of everything I've seen or read.

 

[Tigerman]

I don't see how killing something to eat is wasteful?

You can equally argue nobody needs to eat beef, chicken and pigs.

I think the average whale has a much better life than the average factory farmed chicken.

Anyone truely interested in relieving animal suffering would do a lot better to concentrate on the big picture - hw many chickens a year are factory farmed and killed in America? Tens of millions? More? Makes a few hundred whales a year pale into insignificance.

If you think whales are too intelligent to be killed (never seen any evidence of that myself) then I think you should focus your attention on the bush meat trade in Africa... many more monkeys are killed each year than whales. Or how about the Koreans and Chinese who eat man's best friend, dogs? Or French who eat highly sensitive and intelligent horses?

The french eat slimy, yucky snails, so it evens out or something?

 

[Kim]

The french eat slimy, yucky snails, so it evens out or something?

Actually....they taste pretty good in the right sauce!

 

[Tigerman]

Actually....they taste pretty good in the right sauce!

Indeed they do!

 

[Otter]

Kim,
A couple of points. Your 760K Minke whale population is 20 year old data. While I don't have any data to back it up, it wouldn't take a giant leap of faith to assume that since that same 20 year period, the world's fisheries have tanked, whale populations have also diminished.

Second, since the "zero take" rule/law went into effect in 1982, Iceland, Norway, and Japan are the only countries to have issued scientific permits in order to take whales. In this decade, Japan is the only country to have continued to do so. As you admit its a 'legal loophole' and therefore technically not illegal -- but clearly violates the spirit of the IWC Ruling.

Lastly, just because a country has historical transgressions, doesn't make them hypocritical. Should the US not speak out against racism because of its history of slavery? Should the UK not speak out against imperialism because of its activities in the New World, Africa, or India? Should Japan be prevented from speaking out against war crimes/atrocities because of their actions during WWII?

The issue of whale hunting, shark finning, over fishing, pollution, is a GLOBAL ecological issue. Territorial waters, air space, national borders are irrelevant when the system is so interlinked. With over 70% of the world's surface covered by water, I fear we are playing with "greek fire". And yes, given the apparent intelligence exhibited by marine mammals, I think it quite natural for humans to show a greater affinity for them vs. a ling cod....

 

[Kim]

Kim,
A couple of points. Your 760K Minke whale population is 20 year old data. While I don't have any data to back it up, it wouldn't take a giant leap of faith to assume that since that same 20 year period, the world's fisheries have tanked, whale populations have also diminished.

These figures were accepted until at least 2000 when the IWC declared that "maybe" the numbers were fewer than thought - but in fact they didn't know for sure one way or the other. However, as it's generally accepted that whale numbers have been steadily increasing since commercial whaling was halted it's really a stretch to suppose that the 1000 or so Minke whales the Japanese take annually will have much effect on the stocks.

Second, since the "zero take" rule/law went into effect in 1982, Iceland, Norway, and Japan are the only countries to have issued scientific permits in order to take whales. In this decade, Japan is the only country to have continued to do so. As you admit its a 'legal loophole' and therefore technically not illegal -- but clearly violates the spirit of the IWC Ruling.

?? Iceland actually resumed commercial whaling a couple of years ago - and then stopped again - but they still conduct a yearly scientific hunt. I believe Norway resumed commercial whaling in 1993. Their allowed quota is 1052 Minke whales, although I don't think they hunt their full quota. So I'm afraid that your perception that - "Japan is the only country to have continued to do so" is actually very inaccurate, although from the threads posted on this board one might easily get that impression. It's odd that every time a whaling thread comes up it's the Japanese who are held up. I wonder why that is!!!

Lastly, just because a country has historical transgressions, doesn't make them hypocritical. Should the US not speak out against racism because of its history of slavery? Should the UK not speak out against imperialism because of its activities in the New World, Africa, or India? Should Japan be prevented from speaking out against war crimes/atrocities because of their actions during WWII?

I don't think it's the historical transgressions that are hypocritical - although it's a bit odd accusing someone of not acting in a sustainable fashion, while you yourself are part of the main reason for the whales current predicament, and your other marine conservation record is actually appalling. (by you I mean the West in general....not just the US)
What I find hypocritical is when the people shouting so loudly about how bad and barbaric the Japanese (and other whaling nations) are, are actually stuffing themselves daily with all manor of factory farmed, hormone stuffed meat products which they are happily buying in their neat little cellophane wrappings from spotlessly clean supermarket shelves, without a clue, and apparently not a care, as to how it was produced or the suffering involved in the process of earning someone a pile of money. YMMV.

 

[Tigerman]

Kim,
A couple of points. Your 760K Minke whale population is 20 year old data. While I don't have any data to back it up, it wouldn't take a giant leap of faith to assume that since that same 20 year period, the world's fisheries have tanked, whale populations have also diminished.

Second, since the "zero take" rule/law went into effect in 1982, Iceland, Norway, and Japan are the only countries to have issued scientific permits in order to take whales. In this decade, Japan is the only country to have continued to do so. As you admit its a 'legal loophole' and therefore technically not illegal -- but clearly violates the spirit of the IWC Ruling.

Lastly, just because a country has historical transgressions, doesn't make them hypocritical. Should the US not speak out against racism because of its history of slavery? Should the UK not speak out against imperialism because of its activities in the New World, Africa, or India? Should Japan be prevented from speaking out against war crimes/atrocities because of their actions during WWII?

The issue of whale hunting, shark finning, over fishing, pollution, is a GLOBAL ecological issue. Territorial waters, air space, national borders are irrelevant when the system is so interlinked. With over 70% of the world's surface covered by water, I fear we are playing with "greek fire". And yes, given the apparent intelligence exhibited by marine mammals, I think it quite natural for humans to show a greater affinity for them vs. a ling cod....

Norway has officially objected to the IWC whaling treaty and is as such not bound by it and is practicing COMMERCIAL whaling. There is no grey area as far as the norwegian whaling goes as there are set quotas, the whaling is not done under any false pretences and norwegian whalers are not violating a treaty.
You might like or dislike the norwegian whaling, but its not done on the same terms as the japanese, whos yet to be "proven illegal"

 

[Clammy]

I don't see how killing something to eat is wasteful?

You can equally argue nobody needs to eat beef, chicken and pigs.

I think the average whale has a much better life than the average factory farmed chicken.

Anyone truely interested in relieving animal suffering would do a lot better to concentrate on the big picture - hw many chickens a year are factory farmed and killed in America? Tens of millions? More? Makes a few hundred whales a year pale into insignificance.

If you think whales are too intelligent to be killed (never seen any evidence of that myself) then I think you should focus your attention on the bush meat trade in Africa... many more monkeys are killed each year than whales. Or how about the Koreans and Chinese who eat man's best friend, dogs? Or French who eat highly sensitive and intelligent horses?

Or Americans, who choose what's okay to kill or not based on how cute or socially personable it is.