Conception trial begins

[KevinNM]

That's a thing?

There was a carpenter in youtube who ran out of content ideas and decided to test the whole oily rags can ignite in a structured experiment. He predicted it would be boring but instead something like 3 out of 16 ended up having to be dragged outside and drowned. Don’t put them in a plastic garbage can, especially with flammable trash.

 

[berndo]

You should have heard of that, as it is just as much of a thing. You go in to an auto/truck shop and you should find an airtight can for disposal of oily rags. Though, I fear you can find far too many that don't have them.

I tried to find out more about this as I've always just chucked my (motor) oily stuff in the bin. All I can find are reports and warnings about linseed oil and other plant oil, not fossil oil.
It says that the linseed oil heats up due to fast oxidation... motor oil doesn't do that as far as I can tell. I reckon they have airtight can in auto shops because the rags are flammable... but they don't seem to be self-igniting.

 

[Oldmanmatt]

I tried to find out more about this as I've always just chucked my (motor) oily stuff in the bin. All I can find are reports and warnings about linseed oil and other plant oil, not fossil oil.
It says that the linseed oil heats up due to fast oxidation... motor oil doesn't do that as far as I can tell. I reckon they have airtight can in auto shops because the rags are flammable... but they don't seem to be self-igniting.

They definitely are, it’s a well known risk in Engine Rooms and we have quite strict disposal procedures and restrictions on materials in ER rags. Synthetic materials mixed in the rags increase the risk. Mixing (water) damp rags with oil damp increases the risk. Thinners soaked rags mixed with oil soaked rags, increase the risk. I’ve seen it happen three times in the 35 years I’ve been at sea. Once where the rags were left under a dripping sump (the warmer the air temp, the higher the risk). It’s an exothermic reaction as the oil dries, so density of the pile (and inability of the heat to dissipate) increases the risk.
Now we use specific materials for mopping up oil. Store the used materials separately etc etc.

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

I personally think the oily rag in the galley trash can combustion theory is highly questionable.......Maybe in the engine room but not in the galley.

I also personally think that the level of devastation and total destruction caused by this fire would make extremely difficult if not impossible to determine for certain the exact cause of the fire......even though the forensic investigators these days are awesome and I totally respect their expertise and technology.

Based on the "spontaneous oily rag theory",....... I guess that means that none of us should ever use a paper towel to wipe cold bacon grease from a frying pan and then toss it into the kitchen trash can under the sink and then leave the house to go to work............. or go diving!!!

I PERSONALLY think that a damaged or malfunctioning Lithium ION battery either at the charging station or tossed into the trash is far more likely to be the culprit......but I'm just a hack with an opinion who once stayed in a Holiday Inn Express.

I PERSONALLY think that the primary issues here are:

1) Lack of the roving watch....
2) Lack of smoke detectors / alarms
3) Lack of robust fire fighting equipment and the training and drills for the crew in its use.
4) And most importantly, a poorly designed boat with very little to no option for a functional and efficient alternative emergency egress from the berthing area.

On a related note...... All of my experience on LOB's over the past 30 years has been either with the Nautilus group or on the Truth which is a sister ship of the Conception...although with a completely different egress design.

On every Nautilus trip, one of the first orders of business once onboard was a FULL briefing and then FULL fire, MOB and abandon ship drills involving ALL PAX and ALL Crew. Within less than 2 minutes of the "drill" alarm sounding, all PAX would be at their assigned muster stations with PFD's on and the crew would be in full fire fighting gear with SCBA's, hoses deployed and ready to rock, etc.

I don't recall ever having those drills on the Truth.....which doesn't necessarily mean they didn't happen.

 

[boulderjohn]

Who posited an oily rag theory for the Conception fire? I must have missed it.

 

[KevinNM]

That is not very likely. Not impossible, but a cigarette or a bad battery are more likely.

 

[BackAfter30]

Who posited an oily rag theory for the Conception fire? I must have missed it.

I think it was just an offhand comment about a possible way a fire starts in a trash can. Battery, cig butt, oily rag; I'm not thinking of other ignition sources in there.

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

Who posited an oily rag theory for the Conception fire? I must have missed it.

Read posts 183 through 203. Primarily all about the oily rag combustion theory

 

[boulderjohn]

Read posts 183 through 203. Primarily all about the oily rag combustion theory

I see. Someone pointed out that some things can self combust, and gave oily rags as an example. That was discussed in such detail that it eventually seemed as if it was considered a possibility in this case. No one actually suggested it.

A cigarette butt, on the other hand, would be possible, especially since at least one member of the crew was a smoker and could have tossed one in the trash. Note that I am not suggesting that as a cause. There would be no way whatsoever of proving that.

 

[lowwall]

I see. Someone pointed out that some things can self combust, and gave oily rags as an example. That was discussed in such detail that it eventually seemed as if it was considered a possibility in this case. No one actually suggested it.

A cigarette butt, on the other hand, would be possible, especially since at least one member of the crew was a smoker and could have tossed one in the trash. Note that I am not suggesting that as a cause. There would be no way whatsoever of proving that.

And it doesn't matter anyway. What does is that someone realizes that fires sometimes start in trashcans and takes step to mitigate the risk. Examples: Don't allow smoking below decks. Put safe cigarette disposal units where smoking is allowed. Use a metal can with lid. Don't put your can in a place where if it catches fire it will block exits or set the exit route on fire. Have a smoke detector and fire extinguisher nearby.

BTW, ever wondered about the signs in airplane bathrooms not to put cigarettes in the trash?
1973's Varig Flight 820 - Wikipedia - 123 deaths from fire and smoke inhalation. "Consequently, the FAA issued AD 74-08-09 requiring "installation of placards prohibiting smoking in the lavatory and disposal of cigarettes in the lavatory waste receptacles; establishment of a procedure to announce to airplane occupants that smoking is prohibited in the lavatories; installation of ashtrays at certain locations; and repetitive inspections to ensure that lavatory waste receptacle doors operate correctly."

Not surprisingly, signs alone proved to be insufficient:
1983's Air Canada Flight 797 - Wikipedia - 23 deaths, mostly from smoke inhalation, from fire that started in aft lavatory trashcan. Everyone was probably alive when they landed, but 23 of the 41 passengers were unable to make it out of the plane. It's not certain whether the ignition was due to a cigarette or electrical arcing but either way the trash provided the fuel that allowed the fire to grow out of control. Following the fires, the FAA eventually accepted NTSB recommendations including requiring: smoke detectors in lavs, automatic fire extinguishers in the trash bins, upgrading of fire extinguishers from CO2 to Halon, floor track lighting to guide passengers to exits, provision of full face breathing equipment for flight attendants.