Jackson Blue Accident?

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Originally posted by blacknet
Hello,

There is another thread about agencies and accident reporting which talks about why they don't report them.

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4700&highlight=accident

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5185&highlight=accident

Think the bottom line is libality or something like that.

Ed

Ed,

Thanks for the links. I can see where PADI might not want its accident stats published. What company would want that?

The problem with that argument is that there is no liability for reporting facts. The NTSB does it. They not only report the facts, but the names of those involved. They name names.

Skydiving assns. report facts. You name it, in many areas of endeavor, especially where the government has oversight, or there is the issue of "public good" or safety, accident reports are often part of the public record, often with the names, dates and conclusions included.

The Tech diving agency(cies) that didn't want to let this info loose WAS in fact willing to allow me to collate these reports so long as I scrubbed them clean of all personal info/data and reported only the facts and did not offer any unsubstantiated opinion about the incidents.

I was even introduced at an IUCRR meeting as an assistant to Jeff Bozanic responsible for collating and publishing these reports. Henry even briefly outlined how it would work. I believe that he was on board for the process and with some reservations, agreed with it.

There _was_ the mention of potential liability, during the formative process, for offering opinions that did not clearly arise from the facts, or any opinion at all. But I agree with that position, generally. I think the facts can speak for themselves and as Tech divers we have the right to that information however it's packaged.

I agreed to all of these parameters. I even agreed to allow the IUCRR board to have final say on each report as it was finished as a final fact check, something that would have slowed the process immeasureably. But if that's what it took, I was willing to go jump through their hoops and I did.

They even had me join the organization and take a Recovery Diver course from them, which I did. But when the rubber met the road, they would not release the facts. One of their "hoops" for me to jump through was to work for the current database administrator, Jeff Bozanic, helping him research some dives, which I did. And in each case, when I finished I emailed him and asked when I could start working on the database. Usually I got no direct reply to that request -- stonewalled.

I could not have been more cooperative and nicer about the whole thing but in the end nothing came of it. When, after 14 months, nothing happened I emailed Henry, then head of the IUCRR, and someone whom I respected, (he tragically died of cancer last year) and resigned. My personal feeling was that it was the IUCRR board, packed as it is with many of the old NACD/NSS-CDS dinosaurs, that ultimately could not allow this info to be released. Other, more cynical writers have suggested that this is because these accidents would condemn these agencies for ongoing unsafe practices and procedures. That's for others to decide, IMHO.

In the end, I do not believe that in any way it had ANYTHING to do with liability, I believe it was politics and a fear of criticism, pure and simple. If liability was the fear, why is the IUCRR website now publishing some of the more recent accidents reports? These are reports that could at one time or another have been found on any one of several mailing lists and the facts are out, so why these and not items from their database going back many years which had also been published somewhere at the time?

Sheck Exley's book not only describes the facts, but then goes on to draw conclusions from the facts, often extrapolating what _might_ have happened. The notion that somehow we all have to be protected from the awful facts of these deaths and near-misses is galling. We have the right to that information and they who have collected it over the years (and I applaud them for that) have an obligation to release it in some useful form. I have no doubt that if that info is released it WILL prevent accidents.

And to me, that is the most damning thing of all.

JoeL
 
Hello,

Has anyone actually found the real cause of death yet?

Ed
 
Originally posted by blacknet
Hello,

Has anyone actually found the real cause of death yet?

Ed

I am not aware that if they have, that it's been released to anyone. If I hear, I'll post it here.

This one's going to be particularly sensitive because it involves a former (some said "active") WKPP team member, albeit not on a dive sponsored or condoned by the team. And it involves a friend of some Texas cave divers who are VERY critical of the WKPP and particularly Trey especially in light of this accident, so there are some strong feelings over this incident. Strong feelings could lead to hidden or skewed final reports.

JoeL
 
Hello,

What made me ask that was this thread was started about 90ish days ago. It would seem to me that they *should* have the cause of death long before now.

Ed
 
Originally posted by blacknet
Hello,

What made me ask that was this thread was started about 90ish days ago. It would seem to me that they *should* have the cause of death long before now.

Ed

Ed,

I agree. There may already be a cause known by his family, but they may not wish to release it to the general public. I don't exactly know how these things go, when a diver dies is the ME obligated to release a report to the public or just to the police and family?

I know at least one cave death where (so I was told by someone I consider to be knowledgeable) the family simply released the wrong cause of death so that the diver would not be criticized for poor judgement, which is what the initial reports seemed to indicate.

Ever notice how often tech divers die of heart attacks? Think they all died that way? Sure, we're all getting older and I'm sure there is and will be an increase of unhealthy idiots dying ding something you absolutely MUST be fit for, but I wonder.

JoeL
 
Hello,

since he was a wkpp member you think that the wkpp has the cause of death and not releasing it?

Ed
 
Originally posted by blacknet
since he was a wkpp member you think that the wkpp has the cause of death and not releasing it?
Sure Ed, if you can't find any facts to give the WKPP a black eye, just make 'em up.

C'mon, you think the WKPP has the ability to override the family's wishes and governmental agencies?

If you're going to post conjecture, at least make it remotely feasible.

Roak
 
WHAT A CROCK!! :upset: Of course the ME's report is out there. Maybe, just maybe, the family doesn't want to release it. The WKPP had nothing to do with any of this, period. Gimme a friggin' break.

Mike
 
Whatever did happen at Jackson Blue, it is crystal clear that it is not a "DIR" or WKPP issue. What Jonathan did procedurally probably didn't have anything to do with it either, but without the ME's report we on the sidelines just don't know. The most probable cause - this is my opinion based on grapevine information - is a disease related blockage resulting in a fatal barotrauma. Blamestorming won't do any of us any good, and Jonathan's gone. I'd like to see the ME report for possible "lessons learned" - but without it all is just conjecture.
-------------------------
However, I'll share a true story where I learned a lesson that I think may be the one here. Just downstream from Jackson Blue is Twin Caves, a silty little hole that eventually leads to some very nice systems. I was coming off a cold - about two weeks, and felt like I was ready to dive. We made a first dive in Jackson Blue - line drills & such, then went on over to Twin. We were on a short dive profile, and turned the dive about 800' in. It was at that point I realized (1) I wasn't really over the cold (2) I was exhausted (3) I had no business being in that cave and (4) I still had to swim back to the exit. It was a very long swim, with me saying "you dummy" to myself all the way out. We had planned another dive in Jackson Blue that afternoon and a couple more the next day, but I bowed out. Luckily we were a team of four, so I didn't ruin the other guys' weekend by quitting, but I should never have been there in the first place. The lesson: A cave is no place to be even a little off your health.
Rick
 
Originally posted by blacknet
Hello,

since he was a wkpp member you think that the wkpp has the cause of death and not releasing it?

Ed

No. There are a lot of folks who just always seem to go after the WKPP no matter what. But let's say they did get advanced knowledge because of Jonathan's association with them. Can you imagine the firestorm for releasing it before the family had a chance to see or comment?

I think they'd be criticized either way. And they are.

JoeL
 
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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