Is the Speigel for Novices??

[WinDuck]

I have booked several dives with a dive operator who has informed me that on one of the days they will be diving the Spiegel and wanted to know my interest in diving this wreck. I informed them of my being a novice and inquired about the necessary skill to dive this site. They informed me that by the time the dive comes I will have logged a couple of dives, but if at the time I didn't feel comfortable about diving the Spiegel that they would take us to a different spot during the other divers SI. I must say that I feel a little uncomfortable regarding the fact that according to most the Spiegel is definetly not a novice dive, even with a DM. If I follow my gut, I get a red flag. Or am I reading this wrong? Your imput on the skill level for Spiegel is greatly appreciated, and any other comments.

Dive ON & Safety First

 

[H2Andy]

well... what makes the Spiegel a somewhat challenging dive is

(1) possible currents

and

(2) possible max depth

the current can get fast, sometimes without much warning. if you go on a
particularly calm day (current wise) this isn't much of an issue. just keep an
eye on where your line is in case the current picks up and you need to reach
the line quickly.

as to depth, that's totally under your control. just set a max depth and don't
go any deeper. now that the wreck is sitting upright, you should be able to
see quite a lot of it without having to go too deep.

the bottom line is how comfortable you feel. you can always dip your toe,
see how you it's going, and call the dive if things start to get dicey.
the trick is not to wait until you are over your head, but to call the dive
when you see the water starting to rise, sort of speak

 

[MikeJacobs]

...SNIP... If I follow my gut, I get a red flag. SNIP...

YOU can always change your mind, but the quote above from your post pretty much says it all. Get a little more experience and maybe next time!

 

[Big Mike]

Most dive ops consider The Grove an "Advanced" dive for 2 reasons: Current & Depth. Grove can have no current on good days & ripping on others. Also MINIMUM DEPTH used to be 55 feet to the port side. Now (from maps I've seen) it is 62 feet. Bow ball used to attach to ship at 100 feet, I don't know what it is now.

IMHO you should not do this dive (or the Duane or Bibb) with this little experience. PERIOD. No matter if a dive op is willing to drop you in the water there. (I'm sure there are alot of dive ops that wouldn't take a new OW with less than 15 dives.) Get experience first, AND RESPECT for the ocean. The Grove, Duane or Bibb are NO PLACE for a new diver. Currents can be RIPPING at all 3 of these. I've done the Grove 3 times and it has always been CROWDED. Boats were tied up at all the balls. Bringing into play other risk factors that a crowd causes.

I would SUGGEST that for someone of your level of EXPERIENCE, the only wreck you should do in the Keys now would be the BENWOOD (50 ft max) or shallower items such as City of Washington. These are generally sheltered from the current and are low risk.

I go to the Keys 3 or 4 times a year. I've got well over 100 dives in the Keys. I've done all the wrecks there at least once. They are all neat in their own way, but none are worth DYING to SEE! That a dive op would even CONSIDER allowing you on the Grove with your experience level (whether you have a Guide or not) is RIDICULOUS! Obviously, they are concerned about $$$ and not your safety. Who are you diving with for a buddy? If they tried buddying you up with me on this dive, I'd tell them NO F'ing WAY!

Be smart, build experience & work up to advanced dives!

 

[WinDuck]

That a dive op would even CONSIDER allowing you on the Grove with your experience level (whether you have a Guide or not) is RIDICULOUS! Obviously, they are concerned about $$$ and not your safety.

With that said. I guess now I am concerned about the Dive OP. I am going to give them the opportunity to clarify their position, before canceling and booking with someone else. Suprisingly enough the DO came highly recommend by SB members. So I am hoping that it is just some type of misunderstanding of communication. Eventhough I don't know how much more of a novice I could have said that I am, first dives post OW cert.

I have to remember that the DiveOFF switch is at my fingertips.

 

[inter_alia]

The Dive Op gave you a real option of going to another site (shallower, really good ones are nearby the Grove) during the other divers' SI. They are only relying on the information you provided them so before cancelling, you're right, let them clarify their position. Personally, I finally got down on the Grove last week (my 113th dive) and twice before then I'd aborted just because of the currents and that "DiveOFF switch" I get to control. Others report little to no current on varying days, like H2Andy mentioned above, and as long as you keep your wits about you regarding depth -- the Grove is quite a site from just the line.

It's your gut instinct, though, and I believe we'd all say stick with that. Besides, I love the Benwood -- one of my favorite sites off Key Largo.

Have a great time!

 

[scubafool]

I have done a grand total of two dives on the Spiegel Grove. I truly did enjoy them, but in hindsight, and considering my experience & skill levels as they were at that time, I don't think I made a wise decision. The current was not extreme that day, but it was definitely a factor.

Having nothing other than your current experience to base a reccomendation upon, I would advise against doing this dive. If you do decide to, I would keep it shallow. As far as dumping the operator, that is up to you. While their apparent willingness to allow you to dive this wreck given your novice status might be cause for concern, the offer of going out of the way, so to speak, to allow you to do a shallower dive, is a definite plus.

 

[scubadad]

I did the SG twice on Saturday. The current changed between dives and between top and bottom. It was mild on the wreck, but flag pole on the line at +50'.

I would be concerned doing this as a novice diver, unless you had a DM with you. He could help you deal with the possible sudden changes in conditions and teach you more about deep diving. You could look at this is a training session.

 

[baitedstorm]

Hi!!!

you know that little voice that keeps telling you NOT to do it, the same one that had you making this thread, well.... it's there for a reason, please don't ignore it. NOBODY here can tell you if your ready or not, we can only give you our opinions. If your having little chats with yourself about being ready for a more advanced dive, please don't ignore it.
The SG is a beaut for certain, but there's a really good chance she's gonna be there for years to come. I'm certainly not going to tell you not to go, but I will say, if I was the DM (very few ever go in the water with the divers down in the Keys unless you pay the hefty extr***** to have them dive with you) I wouldn't have you making that dive and would strongly suggest you stay more within your experience level. Please read this should you still question yourself...

BTW, whose the DO? I know several down there and actually have somewhat of an idea whom it might be. No one has done anything wrong, seeing how they did give you an "out" should you not feel comfortable enough to go, so I'm positive they wouldn't mind you sharing their name with all 40,000 of us SB'ers.

Something about FIRST DIVES AFTER CERT DIVES and the SG, just doesn't sit well with me...

 

[baitedstorm]

I would be concerned doing this as a novice diver, unless you had a DM with you. He could help you deal with the possible sudden changes in conditions and teach you more about deep diving. You could look at this is a training session.

:11: :11: :11:

NEGATIVE!!!!! A DiveMaster is absolutely NOT your babysitter. Don't you dare think for one single second that someone else is going to save your butt when "it" hits the fan. That is a false sense of security I see divers create for themselves in order to feel all warm and fuzzy inside, specially when they know damn well they have no business on a particular dive. The excuse I hear most often... "Well, there will be a DM in the water with me". My reply, you are a certified diver and I expect you to act like one.

If you (you being any novice diver reading this post) want a training sessions, hire an Instructor, take your AOW, specialties in wreck and deep dives, get a few dives under your belt, then go down (safely) and check the girl out. She's worth it, but not worth your life.

ScubaDad, please note that I'm not barking at you , I just want people who might pick this thread up now and a year from now to understand how very important it is to be properly trained before diving such an advanced dive. A DiveMaster (nor an Instructor for that matter)can not be at your side for the entire dive (unless they are your personal DM/Instructor for the trip) and even then, are they willing to risk their life for yours? Is that really a reasonable request?
Silly little things down there can kill even the best divers. Lets make sure our newbies are as safe as we can keep them, after all, think about how close together the inflate and deflate button on your BCD is. Someone with, lets say 4 dives, could very easily confuse the too, inflate their BCD at the bottom of the SG and bolt to the surface. All over less then an inch and an honest, common little mistake.