Is the air 2 a good octo?

[IslandHopper]

detroit diver once bubbled...


Consider one thing. If your inflator decides to stick open, and you're got to disconnect the hose to it to stop a runaway ascent- you've disconnected YOUR backup air supply. Why would you pay MORE for that?

If you have this problem, aren't you going to end the dive anyhow ??

I like my Air2 ... though I just use it for recreational diving and dont go real deep .... rarely over 60'.
If I were into cave diving or deco and such, I'd probably go with a Full Quality Regulator for my alternate... Not because I don't trust the Air2, but because I'd just want the best possible if I don't have direct access to the surface.

In short, I like not having another hose dangling around me

 

[ew1usnr]

IslandHopper once bubbled...
If you have this problem, aren't you going to end the dive anyhow ??

That makes sense to me but "Why do people need to argue with this irrefutable wisdom?? "

You say that "like your Air2" but "Task loading is an obvious problem with divers," will you "be fumbling around with different unnamable buttons that he hasn't practised with on his inflator hose regulator"?

It seems that the majority of people who argue against it have never TRIED it. They are just parroting back what they have been told or read about it. An Air2 breathes great, can be quickly employed, and is easy to use. Buoyancy can be controled during ascent without "task loading". There aren't any more buttons than on any other inflator. You can still have your primary on a longer hose to simplify buddy breathing.

 

[detroit diver]

Yeh, you've not only ended your dive, but you've possibly ended your life. Remember-you're buddy's OOA, panic'd, and has your primary. The only source of air is now in his/her mouth.

IslandHopper once bubbled...



If you have this problem, aren't you going to end the dive anyhow ??

I like my Air2 ... though I just use it for recreational diving and dont go real deep .... rarely over 60'.
If I were into cave diving or deco and such, I'd probably go with a Full Quality Regulator for my alternate... Not because I don't trust the Air2, but because I'd just want the best possible if I don't have direct access to the surface.

In short, I like not having another hose dangling around me

 

[DA Aquamaster]

detroit diver once bubbled...
Yeh, you've not only ended your dive, but you've possibly ended your life. Remember-you're buddy's OOA, panic'd, and has your primary. The only source of air is now in his/her mouth.

A lot of what gets said in scuba board has the same ring to it as the old commercial where the actor who played Marcus Welby on TV endorses a bottle of asprin and says "I'm not a doctor but I play one on TV..." to establish his credentials. A load of bull, but it sold a LOT of asprin.

So my question is, have you ever had a panicked out of air buddy or are you just speaking from the position of having heard about one in training?

I've had two OOA's with panicked divers, both were well managed and I'm still here. I will tell you based on my real life direct experience that someone had better have their stuff together and maintain a cool head or someone is going to get hurt regardless of what equipment you have along.

Having said that, if one of you has their stuff together and has a cool head it does not matter if you are on a pony, an AIR 2 or a 100' ft long snorkel, you will be able to manage the situation. The argument about which is better is not the real issue, particularly when it takes multiple simultaneous failuires to create a situation where you can even argue that an AIR 2 would not work.

I have never seen an Air 2 stick in inflator mode, and if you have ever looked at a schematic or dissaembled one, you would realize just how corroded, encrusted and poorly maintained it would need to be in order to stick. As an octo they will freeze up if you do something extreme like fill a 100 lb lift bag in one shot at depth in 40 degree water, but then show me a second stage that would not?. And unlike a conventional second stage you can disconnect it for about 10 seconds and then reconnect the now thawed air 2. I have seen the occasional Air 2 in need of service that would release a bubble or two during the dive, but due to the location it is immedately obvious to the diver. With a conventional octo, the average divers tends to be pretty oblivious until the condition becomes more severe.

The real isssue is not equipment but rather diver competence and the often unanswered question of whether they really have the competence and attitude to be doing what they are doing. A DIR approved second stage on a 7' hose attached to a set of isolator manifolded doubles will not be enough to save your butt if you do not know your stuff and maintain a cool head.

Basking in the warm glow of an approved gear configuration can be a very beguiling crutch for inadeqate skills or an inadequate ability to operate in highly stressful situations at depth.

There is nothing wrong with DIR nor accident analysis and I encourage thoughtful consideration of gear configuration. But DIR does not have a monopoly on either and I get concerned when concepts like accident analysis and gear configuration become driven by an agency or a diver with an agenda and then get parrotted by other divers who lack the real world experience to make informed decisions or back up their opinions.

So unless someone has actually had a real live, real world OOA situation I am not exactly sitting on the edge of my seat in anticipation of hearing what they have to say.

 

[ppilot]

DA Aquamaster once bubbled...

Basking in the warm glow of an approved gear configuration can be a very beguiling crutch for inadeqate skills or an inadequate ability to operate in highly stressful situations at depth.

#1 most insightful thing I've ever read on Scubaboard.

 

[MikeS]

savagemyth once bubbled...
Why, in an OOA situation would you do a 100' horizontal swim at depth and increased air consumption rate with 2 divers breathing off the same gas supply before finally heading to the surface?
When the gas runs out, who gets to choose who makes it to the surface, and who drowns? This clearly belongs in the beginning of a "lessons for life" story.

The reason for swimming horizontal is to allow you to ascend at the anchor line and come up at the boat. Additionally it can be quite difficult to maintain a safe rate of ascent and hold a safety stop(s) in open water without a visual reference.

With good gas management you always have sufficient air to get you and your buddy safely back to exit point and safely to the surface. Additionally, you should consistently monitor your air supply and know at what point to head straight to the surface.

IMO what belongs in a “lessons for life” story is two divers getting bent because they had such poor gas management skills that they bolted to the surface in an OOA situation despite the fact that they had sufficient gas to calmly swim to the anchor line and safely surface including a safety stop.

Mike

 

[love2godeep]

I've been considering an AIR2 system. I was puzzled about how you would control buoyancy in an OOA situation with a buddy having the primary reg.

I really want my own equipment:

I ran out of air on the last OW dive before getting certified. (The gauge malfunctioned and the tank was therefore not full. I don't recall any panic. I located my buddy who had wandered away, gave her the sign, gave it again as she didn't get it the first time, and she gave me her octo. We made it to the surface, no problem.)

On my last two dives, the BC leaked a lot of air and cut the dive short.

I want my own equipment.

I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who has had to do an emergency ascent with the AIR2. Was it difficult to operate the inflate/deflate buttons while using the AIR2 to breathe?

 

[ew1usnr]

love2godeep once bubbled...
I've been considering an AIR2 system. Was it difficult to operate the inflate/deflate buttons while using the AIR2 to breathe?

After arguing in defense of the Air2 I will surprise everyone and recommend AGAINST buying one with your first regulator set. It's not because the buttons are difficult to operate, but because a set with a standard octopus and inflator hose is a lot more adaptable and versatile. An Air2 has to be installed onto your BC and a special sized Air2 inflator hose has to be installed on your regulator. You can't switch your regulator to a different BC or use your BC with a different regulator.

It would be better (in my opinion) to wait until you have gained some experience with a standard regulator set, and after you have more than one regulator and one BC, before you consider an Air2.

 

[detroit diver]

Your premise is correct in theory, but not in reality.

I practice OOA's on EVERY dive. OOA's with mask off drills. Blind ascents while OOA. Almost every potential problem you can imagine. On every dive. My dive buddies obviously do the same type of training. So no, I don't see this type of "real" emergency that would cause a panic. And based on my training, I should never see this.

Therein lies the problem. Virtually no one does this type of training (of course there are exceptions, especially the hard core divers that dive every week or so. This post refers to about 99 percent of the twice a year vacation type divers that not only don't practice this, but are using unfamiliar (even their own) equipment). And when the sh*t hits the fan, anything that can go wrong may go wrong. So your choice is to reduce the potential failure issues, or rely on your stroke of luck.

So you haven't seen one of those AIR2's inflators stick open? That means it can't happen? Do a search on this board. There are at least a couple of posts that show precisely that.

Again, my point is that well trained divers can handle many situations. Put this post on a Tec board and I would not push it so hard. This board is the market that they are pushing the AIR2's on, and the couple-times-a-year recreational divers is the one who will get hurt the most if it should fail at the wrong time.

BTW, this has nothing to do with DIR, but you have convieniently managed to work that in. This has to do with diver's safety.

And yes, the issue becomes equipment when the diver does not have the training to feel comfortable about the situation.

One of the nice things about well thought out gear configuration is that it works well in most types of situations. One doesn't have to point to numbers or statistics to have the ability to evaluate good configs from bad ones. Any intelligent individual can see the benefits from reducing potential failure points. What is more important than your next breath?

And in response to your condescending "parrot" post, there is no agenda here. I have no reason to try and convert anyone to my way of diving. I will, however, be the first one to point out safety issues where appropriate.

DA Aquamaster once bubbled...


A lot of what gets said in scuba board has the same ring to it as the old commercial where the actor who played Marcus Welby on TV endorses a bottle of asprin and says "I'm not a doctor but I play one on TV..." to establish his credentials. A load of bull, but it sold a LOT of asprin.

So my question is, have you ever had a panicked out of air buddy or are you just speaking from the position of having heard about one in training?

I've had two OOA's with panicked divers, both were well managed and I'm still here. I will tell you based on my real life direct experience that someone had better have their stuff together and maintain a cool head or someone is going to get hurt regardless of what equipment you have along.

Having said that, if one of you has their stuff together and has a cool head it does not matter if you are on a pony, an AIR 2 or a 100' ft long snorkel, you will be able to manage the situation. The argument about which is better is not the real issue, particularly when it takes multiple simultaneous failuires to create a situation where you can even argue that an AIR 2 would not work.

I have never seen an Air 2 stick in inflator mode, and if you have ever looked at a schematic or dissaembled one, you would realize just how corroded, encrusted and poorly maintained it would need to be in order to stick. As an octo they will freeze up if you do something extreme like fill a 100 lb lift bag in one shot at depth in 40 degree water, but then show me a second stage that would not?. And unlike a conventional second stage you can disconnect it for about 10 seconds and then reconnect the now thawed air 2. I have seen the occasional Air 2 in need of service that would release a bubble or two during the dive, but due to the location it is immedately obvious to the diver. With a conventional octo, the average divers tends to be pretty oblivious until the condition becomes more severe.

The real isssue is not equipment but rather diver competence and the often unanswered question of whether they really have the competence and attitude to be doing what they are doing. A DIR approved second stage on a 7' hose attached to a set of isolator manifolded doubles will not be enough to save your butt if you do not know your stuff and maintain a cool head.

Basking in the warm glow of an approved gear configuration can be a very beguiling crutch for inadeqate skills or an inadequate ability to operate in highly stressful situations at depth.

There is nothing wrong with DIR nor accident analysis and I encourage thoughtful consideration of gear configuration. But DIR does not have a monopoly on either and I get concerned when concepts like accident analysis and gear configuration become driven by an agency or a diver with an agenda and then get parrotted by other divers who lack the real world experience to make informed decisions or back up their opinions.

So unless someone has actually had a real live, real world OOA situation I am not exactly sitting on the edge of my seat in anticipation of hearing what they have to say.

 

[TCDiver1]

DA Aquamaster once bubbled...

So unless someone has actually had a real live, real world OOA situation I am not exactly sitting on the edge of my seat in anticipation of hearing what they have to say.

Its rare when i agree completely with DD but in this case i do.

I haven't had any pure OOA situations with Air-2's but i have had and seen plenty of freeflows and leaks. Specifically with SP Air-2's in cold water, water colder than 45 degrees F. None of them were pure OOA's because a buddy with a non-Air-2 octo (in most cases me with a standard length hose octo) was there to donate air if needed.

From my experience, they are a finicky piece of junk. Yeah i owed one for about a month in the early 90's before i sold it at major loss. Darn thing kept freeflowing and/or leaking, no matter how it was adjusted or tweaked. I couldn't sell the thing fast enough.

They suck for teaching OW class too. They give us more trouble than any other single piece of student gear we need for OW training. Nothing like having to break down and fix these things when your trying to teach a class.

So forget the whole hose length debate. Worry if the thing is going to freeflow on you. From my experience you should if you own one and dive it in cold water.