Is the air 2 a good octo?

[detroit diver]

jplacson once bubbled...
I've been asking the same question for quite a while now... I've been talking to a lot of DIR friends, and dive instructors...

They all tell me NOT to get an AIR2 or similar system.

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As for confusion... practice..practice...practice. Besides... the Air2 setup is actually closer to DIR than the widely used "PADI, donate octo to OOA diver' procedure.
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Glad to see you're taking the advice from some knowledgeable people. NOT.


DIR? You have not a clue. Multiple failure points on one suipply hose? Having to contol bouyancy with the same instrument as you are required to breath from? I don't think so.

Neither one is DIR. Period. If I were forced to choose one though, the AIR2/Octo+ wouldn't even be a consideration. The full second stage on it's own supply line,- if a quality reg and tested before/during each dive- would be only choice for all of the reasons you read in the above posts.

 

[jplacson]

Of course neither one is DIR... DIR has always been one way only... it's either it is or it isn't.

My current config now is a 6' primary and a 22" octo bungeed around my neck. Isn't that DIR compliant?

My only point was, that I wanted a secondary OW rig... and I don't really see the problem using an Air2 type system in OW dives that don't push the limits. I've dove with a lot of divers using Air-2s and haven't seen any with a problem so far.

Originally DIR never even had octos since 'octos' are just a compromise to not having a totally redundant regulator on a Y-valve. So it technically wasn't just an octo...but a completely separate regualtor system... identical to the primary.

But wouldn't this setup be a bit overkill for shallow (130' and up) dives?

On all my dives, my BC is almost always completely deflated... except when I'm on the surface... I dive with just 2# so deflating which ascending isn't an issue for me since my wing is empty throughout the dive anyway.

 

[detroit diver]

jplacson once bubbled...
.......

But wouldn't this setup be a bit overkill for shallow (130' and up) dives?

On all my dives, my BC is almost always completely deflated... except when I'm on the surface... I dive with just 2# so deflating which ascending isn't an issue for me since my wing is empty throughout the dive anyway.

When the stuff hits the fan, nothing is overkill. Stress can cause people to do some really nasty things.

As to your BC being deflated-

What happens if you get a stuck valve situation with your AIR2? Let's see. Your BC is inflating at will, and your reg is freeflowing. What do you do??? Answer: you disconnect the supply hose, right? Now what have you done? You've disconnected YOUR air supply. Do you really want to do this??

This is not a smart piece of equipment.

 

[billtodive]

used air-2. handy, workable breathability, streamlined. Wonderful...But I don't want anything screwing up by bouyancy.
octo seems to be the best choice. While I am not a DIR nut, I appreciate all the comments, especially those pointing out the drawbacks of any gear. Makes us all better divers. Thanks

 

[DA Aquamaster]

There seems to be a lot of misinformation here as well as a lot of blanket condemnation of the Air 2 by people who have never actually used one but rather just talked about using one in a forum or ina DIR class. I just love to see people with that kind of first person expertise spout opinons.

Here are my opinions based on 10 yrs of actual use in demanding cold water conditions....

1) The Air 2 works fine at depth. I have used on at 140 ft with no problems or concerns. I acutally use mine now and then just to stay in practice. It does not breathe as well as my D400, but then almost nothing does. It does breathe as well as the average standard downstream valve secoind that gets put to work as an octo.

2) Dumping is not really an issue. SP uses a rather short inflator hose on their BC's but then they also have a separate shoulder dump, so if you are thinking you need to breathe and dump off the Air 2, you are doing it wrong. On my rig I have a dump on the wing that gets used 95% of the time and in any event, for the other 5% the inflator hose is longer than on an SP BC and does not restrict either dumping or head movement when breathing with the Air 2. Many BC's are similar and often all that is needed to get more room to move is to undo the velcro flap that holds the hose to the shoulder strap on the BC. It gives you both more lenght and more freedom of movement.

3) The opinion that Air 2 is a bad idea because of the potential for multiple failure points on one hose sounds really technical and valdid but it isn't. In normal use the Air 2 is no more likely to fail than the average inflator and is less likely to freeflow than the average octo on the end of its own hose getting drug through sand, mud etc. Unlike a conventional octo, the Air 2 gets used and flushed out on every dive and if a potential propblem starts to develop it will be noticed and fixed before it becomes acute. From a practical standpoint, in 10 years and nearly a 1000 dives with one, all in cold water, I have never had a freeflow issue with an Air 2 under normal use. (We will get to the exception later)

The real issue is one of having two theoretical failure points on one hose that you can disconnect in a freeflow situation versus having two potential failure points on two separate hoses (with two additional o-rings and one hose that can fail) and only being able to disconnect one of these devices in the event of a freeflow. I'll take the the Air 2 and it's "multiple failure points on one hose" any time over a conventianal octo as unlike an octo, either failure is readily and easily manageable.

Now...the one "problem" I have noted with the Air 2 is that if you attempt to fill a 100 lb lift bag in one continuous shot in upper 30 to low 40 degree water at depth (greater than 100 ft), the Air 2 will freeze up and freeflow. This is however well outside the normal intended use of the reg and there are many high quality octos that would also freeze under this type of use (continuous flow with no warming exhalation back into the reg.)

But this is not really not so much a problem with the Air 2 but rather an advantage. The advantage is that I can disconnect the LP hose in about half a second to stop the freeflow and after about 10 seconds the reg will thaw and I can reconnect it and continue the dive. On the other hand, if I freeze a regular octo while shooting a lift bag it's going to dump the entire contents of the tank and there is nothing I can do about it short of shutting the valve on the tank. That is an option but takes more time, results in more air loss, is a more diffiult process and requires a redundant air supply to use until the octo thaws and the valve can be reopened. So...

4) On the average dive, the Air 2 is my first choice for shooting a lift bag as I do not have to be concerned about the potential to freeze up a second stage.

5) The Air 2 is ideal for use in solo diving where you will also be using a pony or an indepedant double. It eliminates a hose in a situation where an extra hose can begin to be a streamlining issue. It also provides an additional second stage to access your primary air supply in the event your primary second stage decides to go out for a beer. It also makes it nearly impossible to use the wrong second stage as could happen with a conventioanl octo used in conjuction with a pony bottle where you unknowingly end up breathing off the pony rather than the man tank. It's hard to mis-identify an Air 2.

6) What has not been mentioned is that the Air 2 is a SUPERB balanced inflator (its PRIMARY function) and vastly better than many of the generic inflators that even DIR die hards have on their BC's and do not think twice about using, despite the handicap they impose in terms of truly precision bouyancy control.

I welcome any comments and rebuttal from anyone who has actually used one enough to get to know it. However I am not terribly interested in hearing someone reguritate what someone else told them about it in class.

 

[jplacson]

Detroit, Well, in that event..like I said in my earlier post... I'd abort the dive. As with any kind of equipment failure... agreed that an inflator failure is not really a major issue... specially in my case. But in over 5 years of diving... I've only had ONE inflator jam on me and it was a really crappy rental jacket. (It was so worn, the jacket pockets were torn at the bottom from wear!)

Yes, an inflator malfunction on an Air2 system would cause you to lose your octo... although I'd be more afraid of diving with a buddy that gets into an OOA situation with no apparent emergency reason (hose leak, freeflow, etc)

I personally feel that the Air2 systems do introduce more potential problems than a standard bungeed octo... but in a shallow OW (calm seas) situation, I feel that the potential problems aren't that big a deal.

Yes, stress can cause people to do nasty things... prior to getting my own rig... I've had my own share of panic attacks when someone just grabs me out of their own panic! I had someone else's buddy just grab my fins in current cuz they couldn't fin against it and were being carried away! I freaked out cuz I thought my find got stuck in something or worse, something bit my leg!!! :lol: But this happens in ANY gear config if you're not used to it... DIR or not... the thing is, most people with DIR rigs are more experienced (or at least have researched more) than most OW divers... so skill level is usually higher, even if just a notch.

Most divers that still use jacket BCs (OH!!! I've seen a couple of HUB users already! A couple of rich oldies in a yacht) and the whole PADI golden triangle octo thing... but I'm sure if you gave these guys a DIR rig, and had them in an emergency situation as well... they still woudln't know what to do!

Please don't think that I'm attacking the whole bungeed octo setup. I'm not. I feel safer with it as well. But I'm willing to try the Octo+ just for my OW dives. I feel these dives are pretty managable, and should anything fail... I'm not gonna force the issue and continue the dive. We usually dive in a small odd number group... 5-7 people... the boat usually just waits for us, so I can safely surface on my own and my buddy just joins up with the rest of the group... my loss.

DA... the issue with deflating with the Air2 is that Halcyon wings do not have a right shoulder dump. Since the more valves you introduce in your system...the more potential failure points you have. If I dove with more weight, and needed to inflate at depth, the deflating thing might be an issue with me as well, since I dive a Halcyon 27. But since my wing is deflated throughout my dive, I only inflate once I surface, that isn't an issue with me.

On a short note... isn't rule #1 of DIR diving is to note dive with a 'stroke'? Isn't a diver who can't calculate (or read his gauge for that matter since he/she ran out of air in the first place) a bigger stroke than an Air2 user? I think the skill of the diver should determine whether he's a stroke or not, not his equipment. (by DIR standards should be only Halcyon since they almost own the phrase)

 

[coberry7]

You admit that the inflate/deflate buttons are confusing

I recently purchsed new gear, and the Air 2 was part of the setup. Again, practice in the pool and the water will cure that problem. This is an issue that any diver would have with new gear.

You do have a good point about an additional point of failure. when I go climbing I go for the least complicated way to rig a rope, because, as in diving, my life is on the line. (No pun intended) I believe, however, that the benefits do outweigh the risks regarding the Air2. i.e. If the Air 2 fails, I will not die. All I have to do is ascend, or disconnect my LP hose. My octo is still there for use.

I'm not a DIR diver and am not familiar with the practices of this way of thinking and diving. So I can't comment on that.

And yes, I do dive with two knives, for various reasons; I always have two sets of fins (one topside); and I have an extra mask in my bag at the surface. Not only that I have a lot of extra parts that I have accumulated over the years in a Save-a-Dive kit that I keep topside. Why not? I have it, bring it, and dive with what I feel is appropriate for the conditions.

It is my responsibility to do so, in case any of my students forget something, their rental gear breaks, etc etc. I can usually fix or loan then something to help them out so that they can complete the dive. They look to me to do this during training. I ALWAYS REINFORCE THE FACT THAT THEY WILL NEED TO DO THE SAME AS I WILL NOT ALWAYS BE THERE TO HELP THEM OUT WHEN THEY ARE DIVING OUTSIDE OF TRAINING.

And if I ever found myself using my Air 2 or an octo for any reason other than for me to familiarize myself with it, the dive will be aborted and to the surface I/we go!

"When the stuff hits the fan, nothing is overkill". (Quote from Detroit Diver) I agree! Again, when I climb, I have multiple redundant sytems to stop me in the case of a fall. All are more systems that can fail, but the reality of the situation is that the odds of ALL of them failing are miniscule. The risk of having only one safety system, and having it fail are GREATER!! As I said before the benefits of the Air2 outweigh the minute possibility that it will fail. And if it does, well there is always the surface to head to. Or a hose to disconnect, and I STILL have an octo to use, thereby AVOIDING HAVING TO ABORT THE DIVE. THE PROBLEM CAN BE EASILY ISOLATED, AND I CAN INFLATE OR DEFLATE WITHOUT MY LP HOSE CONNECTED.

AS for any additional cost....I must admit that I paid very little for mine, even though it was brand new, and bought through a dive shop, not online. Would I invest in one for full price?? Probably. If I could afford it, then yes, I would.

 

[Ly-cilph]

detroit diver once bubbled...

Consider one thing. If your inflator decides to stick open, and you're got to disconnect the hose to it to stop a runaway ascent- you've disconnected YOUR backup air supply. Why would you pay MORE for that?

I really liked my "Air2" (actually APV AutoAir) setup for a long time until recently exactly this happened to me on a dive.

But with a pony I'm not too keen on having 3 regs either...

 

[Boogie711]

But with a pony I'm not too keen on having 3 regs either...

Don't dive with a pony. Either you manage your gas supply properly or you don't. If you're truly worried about redundancy, get an "H-valve."

 

[DA Aquamaster]

There more to it than just managing your air supply properly or not. The implication that using a pony is a crutch for divers who can't manage their air is ill considered.

In very cold water a first stage freeze up is a possibility and managing your air supply will have nothing to do with the problem that occurs if your primary violently freeflows. An H valve won't help all that much either as the freeflowing reg will be dumping huge amounts of air while you are doing what you have to do to shut it off. If it takes you very long at all to shut wdown the offending reg, you are going to lose large amounts of air. And it gets even more interesting if while reaching over your head at depth you get confused and turn off the wrong reg.

You are far better off with a pony with adequate capacity to allow a normal ascent and saftey/deco stops than you are with an H valve as an H valve is really not fully isolated nor redundant without some immediate and timely action on the part of the user.

H valves are also not an option with rental tanks, so you will not be able to dive the same configuration when you travel. A pony bottle on the other hand can be taken empty and filled on site.