Is safe second really needed?

[DaleC]

Minimalist diving represents a return to the former skill-centric diving methodologies and a parting of the ways with the low skill requirement, equipment dependent, modern training wheels, carry and extra everything system.
N

No it just represents a different way of diving. Boys with their toys and all that. One is no better or worse a diver because you dive a minimalist rig. The diver makes the diver, not the rig.

For the life of me I can't understand why some people can't represent their preferences without tearing down someone else's. If you want others to respect your way of diving why not trying to respect theirs.

 

[Slonda828]

No it just represents a different way of diving. Boys with their toys and all that. One is no better or worse a diver because you dive a minimalist rig. The diver makes the diver, not the rig.

For the life of me I can't understand why some people can't represent their preferences without tearing down someone else's. If you want others to respect your way of diving why not trying to respect theirs.

How is what Nemrod said at all inaccurate?

"low skill requirement, equipment dependent, modern training wheels, carry and extra everything system."

Equipment does replace skill. This is one of the many reasons open water diver is no longer a 40+ hour course like it was back in the day. Back then you had to...gosh, what did they call that....SWIM and be in shape. If you do not think that most divers are equipment dependent, then go on a charter and ask someone to dive without any of the following:

-BCD.
-dive computer.
-Octopus.

All of the above are extras if you are trained proficiently. If you have any doubts, I suggest you go to International Legends of Diving - Scuba Diving Sponsored by Portage Quarry

I agree with you fundamentally Dale, but I really do not think that he was bashing anyone. He didn't say your way of diving is wrong. I think if you took it that way, maybe you should try diving without any of the aforementioned items, and maybe you'll feel better...unless you can't swim, in which case keep your BC on (I'm kidding, I know you can swim.)

 

[DaleC]

I didn't say he was inaccurate, I said he should try respecting other peoples choices if he wants others to respect his.

I have nothing against minimalist rigs but I also don't have anything against DIR, dork or free divers either. I don't confuse the rig with the diver or think that one rig suits all conditions. Each method can teach us something about some aspect of diving. Why not focus on the lessons to be learned from minimalist diving instead of speaking in condescending terms about others who carry more or different gear than you (the general, not personal, you). The gear you choose might be right for the dives you do but it is not right for every diver or every dive. Remember, to a free diver, you minimalists are gear dependent and low skilled... and in their small world they are correct.

I also believe that a BCD is not required for some dives
I also believe a computer is not needed
I also believe one can successfully dive without an octo (for some dives) but that it poses problems for other divers who may assume you have one



If I were setting up a solo rig for isolated, shallow diving I would be quite content to have a single 22" bungied reg. There's nothing wrong with that thinking. If my buddy was like minded a single 40" reg. would suffice I suppose. If I'm around others I would want to be able to offer an octo if needed as that is what is expected. I could huff and puff and try to make everyone bend to my will but is that an expression of skill or ego?
Complaining about the lax state of affairs in modern diving doesn't change the facts. It is what it is what it is. Proper situational awareness means understanding and accepting things as they are, not as we would wish them to be.

 

[pittyyofool]

For the life of me I can't understand why some people can't represent their preferences without tearing down someone else's. If you want others to respect your way of diving why not trying to respect theirs.

I do not believe nemrod was bashing any one persons way of diving, if anything he might have been bashing most certification agencies and there requirements. I agree with him, most agencies are now producing ill equipped divers. At one point in time divers were taught to be self sufficient and not rely on "accessories" to compensate for their incompetencies.
I became a diver 14 years ago, and I feel I was not trained to be self sufficient enough. I look at some friends getting certified now, and they are required to be thought so little self sufficiency that I will not go diving with them until I put them threw my self sufficiency class in my pool. I consider them a personal liability to me if they are not even capable of taking care of them self.
The session mainly consists of putting there regs on a tank and throwing all there gear, completely disassembled, and bc strap unlaced in to the deep end of my pool. Then I tell them to jump in, and find there air supply first then the mask, and then assemble and dawn all the gear. If they surface before the task is complete they get to start over. They have all thanked me and told me how much they learned during the 45min (average time it takes for a new diver it do it) in the bottom of my pool and they all wished there was something like that in their class.

 

[Nemrod]

I didn't say he was inaccurate, I said he should try respecting other peoples choices if he wants others to respect his.
wish them to be.

Uh, excuse me, stating a disagreement is not being disrespectful nor is it inaccurate and especially when I stated in the post, "not to be disrespectful" and the reason I put that in there is for people who try to misconstrue and as well for the fact that Thal, Team and youself are people that I highly respect even when I don't agree with you or them. And, I have stated so before and now yet again.

Disagreement is not disrespect, read what I said and don't extrapolate my "feelings" or intentions beyond what I write. I did not say he was an idiot (because he is the total opposite of that) but I did say that I plain don't agree on a few points and I don't.

Maybe this is some sort of cultural shift, carrying an argument, disagreeing on points, stating a different opinion, is not disrespect, it is disagreement.

Jeeez, it is not like I don't have five or six BCs of my own and a variety of alternate air sources and note how I put my wife in the water:

One might note she has a jacket and an octopus and I have as well here:

DIR/GUE, that is all a good thing, they teach and expect buoyancy control skills and they drill air sharing techniques. Well, the no-BC or minimalist diver must be the master of buoyancy skills, learning to control buoyancy sans BC would help a lot of people we read about HERE with the weighting questions and the buoyancy skill questions. It is not an add on skill, it is a primary skill. PadI teaches it as a merit badge after the fact skill, good grief, Peak Buoyancy course, yeah, they need to teach that up front. It is a PRIMARY skill just like clearing a mask. And, on topic, buddy breathing should still be taught as well as an important skill and if you utilize that system it makes sense to drill it on occasion.

No disrespect intended.

N

 

[Nemrod]

No it just represents a different way of diving. Boys with their toys and all that. One is no better or worse a diver because you dive a minimalist rig. The diver makes the diver, not the rig.

For the life of me I can't understand why some people can't represent their preferences without tearing down someone else's. If you want others to respect your way of diving why not trying to respect theirs.

I am referring to an instructional system that has failed so many, most of whom, have no idea they have been failed. I use a wing/BP and alternate air sources, but, I don't rely upon them as a crutch. Am I disrespecting myself--no. It is not the use of the equipment, it is the instructional dependency that makes me go bonkers. I am sorry that you misunderstood.

Again, myself with wing/BP and octo:

N

 

[ToPpS]

I will only speak for myself here. If a diver wants to dive without a spare octo, that's his choice but he/she won't be my buddy and that's my choice.

As some people have noted, PADI no longer trains divers in buddy breathing. I'm not 100% on the exact reasons but i'm sure that some of them have been touched on, many times in this thread.

Today if you want a minimalist set-up just chose the integrated inflater option like the AirII. Then there is still the option of having a spare octo and you still have a nice clean rig.

I have a spare octo, not because i like having everything but if my dive buddy (who's responsible for his/her own kit) for some reason has a problem, I am able to both deal with the situation and surface safely.

Granted I also have an AI computer with no SPG backup but I've still screwed in a Apeks pony gauge into the first stage just in case...... not ideal, but in an emergency i can still see how much air i have left.

At the end of the day, you can plan to dive a safe dive but it's those unforeseeable instances that you need to be prepared for.

 

[Nemrod]

I will only speak for myself here.

Today if you want a minimalist set-up just chose the integrated inflater option like the AirII. Then there is still the option of having a spare octo and you still have a nice clean rig.

[/B]

If a minimalist diver has no BC then he/she will not have an AirII which is like the worst of everything and none of the good. JMO. No disrespect intended.

No BCs, no octos, hey, y'all quit that before the PadI Police show up.

It is the "Silver Bullet," underwater superhero. His powers include mutant buddy breathing and no-BC buoyancy skills. Beware X Men.

Diving without a BC or octopus is impossible and unsafe, yawn:

Come on in, it really is not like they tell you, the water is fine (those are CO2 surface inflation vests, not a BC):

I am done, carry on, I apologize for being disrespectful to whomever I was, specifically Team, Thal, Dale C, et al.


N, Rise of the Mutant Frogmen

 

[ToPpS]

Nemrod, I've never seen anything like that..... but then i'm new to diving, so that probably explains it.

Very interesting though!

 

[pittyyofool]

IMO being a minimalist is not about diving "naked" or under equipped for the situation. It is about choosing the right tool(s) for the job. If you are tightening a TP holder are you going to bring a concrete hammer drill and sawzall? NO you get a screwdriver. Minimalists ONLY take the gear with them that is needed to safely complete the job and rely on there learned skill for the rest. In open water conditions most minimalists leave almost everything on the boat except a tank, reg, fins and some nylon webbing. "call it MacGyver if you want." If they go scallop collecting they will take a BC or lift bag, if they do a wreck penetration they will bring all the necessary extra equipment. If they dive with some one that is not comfortable with them diving "naked" they will adjust there rig so there buddy is now comfortable, because buddy comfort is part of the job description and must be fulfilled.
When I dive with my girl friend or a few other unnamed people I look like any other diver octo and all, because they need me to have all that stuff to feel comfortable. When I do a Wreck penetration I take a ton of stuff (almost all of it is used), I need this to be comfortable. When I dive with Daniel and/or Matt in open water the padi police are called...