Is safe second really needed?

[sladerer]

There are a number of ways your primary 2nd stage can fail. One of the more common is the strap tie holding the mouthpiece on breaking, but there are certainly enough others to make having a safe second worth while. I'm not a zealot, and figure most of the time dive how you like - I don't take a snorkel in calm water/weather, have been solo diving, and probably done other things that you think are unsafe. The safe second, like a dive knife/scissors, is something I think that most of us would rather have and not need than the opposite. I use the Atomic safe second/integrated inflator, which for me solves the issue of the dragging octo.

 

[Slonda828]

There are a number of ways your primary 2nd stage can fail. One of the more common is the strap tie holding the mouthpiece on breaking, but there are certainly enough others to make having a safe second worth while. I'm not a zealot, and figure most of the time dive how you like - I don't take a snorkel in calm water/weather, have been solo diving, and probably done other things that you think are unsafe. The safe second, like a dive knife/scissors, is something I think that most of us would rather have and not need than the opposite. I use the Atomic safe second/integrated inflator, which for me solves the issue of the dragging octo.

The bad part about the SS1 is that the corrugated hose has to be so long to reach your mouth. This means your fancy SS1 drags in the silt if you even dive near the bottom in a horizontal body position (unless you have it short enough that it is useless). Plus, if you lose your octo, you just lost your inflator as well, as all agencies train to disconnect the low pressure inflator hose in the event of a free flow or auto-inflation. There's nothing like putting two pieces of equipment into one item so if one fails they both do not work. I think octo inflators are junk. I used to have one, and now someone on Ebay does.

Furthermore, if your zip tie on your mouthpiece should somehow fail (yes I've seen the video on youtube of the moron woman who experiences this), you can still breathe from your regulator by putting your lips on the case. It's really easy.

 

[Thalassamania]

There are a number of ways your primary 2nd stage can fail. One of the more common is the strap tie holding the mouthpiece on breaking, but there are certainly enough others to make having a safe second worth while.

I'd be very interested in having you describe a few of them (I will stipulate to the crazed, out of air, non-buddy who appears out of nowhere, clawing at the second stage that is in your mouth).

Furthermore, if your zip tie on your mouthpiece should somehow fail (yes I've seen the video on youtube of the moron woman who experiences this), you can still breathe from your regulator by putting your lips on the case. It's really easy.

Quite so.

 

[Nemrod]

There are a number of ways your primary 2nd stage can fail. One of the more common is the strap tie holding the mouthpiece on breaking, but there are certainly enough others to make having a safe second worth while. I'm not a zealot, and figure most of the time dive how you like - I don't take a snorkel in calm water/weather, have been solo diving, and probably done other things that you think are unsafe. The safe second, like a dive knife/scissors, is something I think that most of us would rather have and not need than the opposite. I use the Atomic safe second/integrated inflator, which for me solves the issue of the dragging octo.

An octopus is strictly for air sharing with an OOA diver. It is not and was never intended for redundancy for the primary diver. Therefore, dispensing with it has little impact on the safety of the primary diver. It may affect the safety of the partner (secondary) diver if they are not trained in the art of buddy breathing.

If you want redundancy then you need two complete regulators, not 1.5 regulators.

I doubt anyone can produce any significant statistics demonstrating buddy breathing is more dangerous than the competing method of air sharing via an octopus in the open water environment. Divers did and still do dive in minimalist configurations without any demonstrated decrease in overall safety. Saying it is so does not make it so, no evidence other than dogma proves otherwise.

The octopus/safe second concept is part of a system, it is a good system no doubt and it works. The system is designed to facilitate air sharing with an OOA diver in open water with minimal training via an extra second stage. The redundancy that is built into this system relies on an similarly equipped diver. Once upon a time long ago scuba divers received more than minimal training and did and were taught to buddy breath and the art of the free ascent. Since both divers in such a team were taught buddy breathing skills then they too were part of a system but it was more of a skill-centric system than an equipment-centric system. Both can work very well. For the solo/independent diver, none of this matters because they are not operating within either system, there is no buddy to buddy breath with or to share air via an octopus.

Minimalist diving represents a return to the former skill-centric diving methodologies and a parting of the ways with the low skill requirement, equipment dependent, modern training wheels, carry and extra everything system.

A BC, a buoyancy compensator, is a construction that largely compensates for a lack of skill. With some exceptions of course.

N

 

[Nemrod]

I can also dive with one fin but using two is much eaisier.

How about 1.5 fins?

 

[Thalassamania]

That makes the case about as clearly as I've ever seen it stated. Thanks.

One quibble: "I doubt anyone can produce any significant statistics demonstrating buddy breathing is more dangerous than the competing method of air sharing via an octopus in the open water environment." You are correct since for any kind of "significance" you need both a numerator and a denominator, and in diving we rarely have either, but when octos were introduced a series of "buddy breathing" failures were cited. I thought, at the time, that this argument was disingenuous since there was no real surety that outcomes would have been any different with or without an octo.

 

[Teamcasa]

An octopus is strictly for air sharing with an OOA diver. It is not and was never intended for redundancy for the primary diver. Therefore, dispensing with it has little impact on the safety of the primary diver. It may affect the safety of the partner (secondary) diver if they are not trained in the art of buddy breathing.

Nope. While having an octo certainly makes sharing air easier, it is not strictly designated for that purpose. Havng an octo can and does provide an added layer of protection against an unnexpected CESA due to a primary malfunction or failure.

I have no issue with a minimalist diver shedding unwanted redundancy or divers using vintage gear and as long their buddy is like minded or they dive solo.

 

[captain]

An octo is good for filling lift bags if you are afraid to remove your regulator from your mouth to do it.

 

[Nemrod]

Nope. While having an octo certainly makes sharing air easier, it is not strictly designated for that purpose. Havng an octo can and does provide an added layer of protection against an unnexpected CESA due to a primary malfunction or failure.

I have no issue with a minimalist diver shedding unwanted redundancy or divers using vintage gear and as long their buddy is like minded or they dive solo.

I don't agree with you at all, not being disrespectful, I simply, plain out don't agree with you. The ONLY purpose for an octopus is and has always been air sharing with an OOA diver. It was presented that way from the beginning of it's introduction and any additional duties to which it has aspired are misdirected. If you need redundancy, you need two regs with H/Y valve or doubles appropriately equipped or ---dare I mention it---a pony/buddy bottle. N

 

[Teamcasa]

I don't agree with you at all, not being disrespectful, I simply, plain out don't agree with you. The ONLY purpose for an octopus is and has always been air sharing with an OOA diver. It was presented that way from the beginning of it's introduction and any additional duties to which it has aspired are misdirected. If you need redundancy, you need two regs with H/Y valve or doubles appropriately equipped or ---dare I mention it---a pony/buddy bottle. N

No disrespect perceived on my end. We are both entitled to our opinions.