Is quick release important?

[String]

With easy to ditch weights, the failure sends you up. There's air up there, even in a chamber.

Bent cant always be fixed and also isn't always survivable.

 

[String]

This is almost unbeleivable from a dive instructor. What if you are negative on the bottom, alone and you suddenly lose all your air supply (which could happen via 25 different methods.) Some people might not want to swim the whole way.

Alone on the bottom. OK so im solo diving. Nothing wrong with that. However as im solo diving i'll be carrying independent air sources. Quite how i can suddenly lose all my air from a twinset or independent cylinders i have no idea. Why not enlighten me?
Secondly, why would i want to be negative on the bottom? Would my wing have failed, my BC failed, my SMB sprung a leak AND all my air gone from both cylinders? Suspect you'd need to be machine gunned to get all those failiures at once.
Absolute worst case i'd undo the waist strip on wing, undo weight belt clip and off it goes.

What if the diver is overweighted and jumps in with the air off and sinks deep before he realizes what's going on?

Proper weighting, proper buddy checks and proper entry technique cure that problem. Ditchable weight isnt solving that core problem there.

What if a diver runs out of air and sinks to the bottom and goes unconcious? A rescue diver might possibly like to drop the victim's lead, especially if the other divers tank is empty and the rescue diver has his BC nearly full at depth just to compensate for his own wetsuit compression

If a rescue diver has his BC nearly full at depth then the rescuer himself is massively overweighted or carrying about 5 cylinders. If desperate to rocket someone to the surface then out comes the shears or knife and cut the straps. It works and its fast.

What if a diver jumps in over weighted, starts sinking deep and fast and then realizes his ears are not clearing and then hits the inflator and it is unconnected? I would drop the belt before my eardrums imploded.

So sort out weighting, revist basic training on *controlled* descents. Remember, divers are meant to descend in a controlled fashion that they can arrest the descent immediately for any reason if needed.. His inflator wasnt connected....Buddy check again. Even then where is his buddy who can and should recognise this.

My friend almost drowned last year because he was somewhat overweighted, had no ditchable lead and entered the water solo with the tank off. He got one breath from the regulator and there was no more, although he obviously didn't know that until he had exhaled. He continue to sink as he deployed the pony reg, which was also turn off. Now he was pretty deep and pretty heavy and had no way to inflate anything. He powered his way up with large freedive fins, but said that he was seeing stars and almost didn't make it.

That really doesnt say a lot for his dive skills really. Again, not an argument for ditchable weight. Its an argument for proper buddy checks or self checks if solo and learning how to use the equipment you carry properly (ie the pony).

Again here recommending a ditchable weight isnt solving a problem - its papering over cracks for situations that need no happen in the first place.

Also. even if a weight belt is lost at depth, it is not difficult to learn to control a bouyant ascent by flaring out, laying on the back and spreading eagle. Even when I'm 20 lbs bouyant I can control my ascent rate to a reasonable level.

Nice in theory but like CESA just about useless in practice. Suddenly becoming 20-30lbs buoyant at depth you're going up, you're going up FAST no matter what you do. You are likely to get bent, or embolise or suffer other forms of trauma related to it. If you have even a small deco obligation rocketing to the surface from that depth is likely to turn that into a severe bend. You can flare all you want but if 20-30lbs positive physics take over and things are going to happen quickly and continue to accelerate no matter what you do.

 

[Lucy's Diver]

Bent cant always be fixed and also isn't always survivable.

Drowning is never survivable.

Basically, on the macro level the entire disagreement comes down to this:

The non ditchable camp seems to be more tech oriented divers who are doing deco obligations and are willing to rely on self rescue for all their problems. Assuming the validity of this approach, maybe one percent of the dive population is capable of all that this entails. You are accepting the risk that you will be unable to ascend or maintain bouyancy at the surface under certain gear failures or diver errors that are not wildly unlikely.

Everyone else straps on an 80, maybe with a small pony, and dives recreational profiles. These people certainly should have ditchable weights. I am one of them; my work dives are very different than my recreational dives. I like to put on 3mm of neoprene, a jacket BC, an 80 and not much else and swim around looking at the pretty coral in 80 foot viz. Like everyone else on a no D dive, the minor risk of getting bent or getting an AGE is outweighed by the more serious risk of drowning if I have a serious gear failure or, for whatever reason, I need to be rescued by someone else.

 

[Patty]

I'm waiting for the torrent of situations in which I cannot maintain positive buoyancy at the surface. So far, there have been.....two.....rare circumstances.

Personal experience:

Buddy panicked at the surface. Flailing about, nearly broke my nose. We're a good distance from shore, and the sea is getting a bit nasty. I got the ditchable weights off. Instantly the panic stopped.

My only regret was that the weights weren't easier to ditch. I might have been hit fewer times.

 

[rongoodman]

The conversation seems to be veering between the desirability of quick release weights vs. having ditchable weight. My XS Scuba weight belt allows the weights to be ditched, but worn under my harness, is it still considered quick release? Does it matter?

 

[String]

Everyone else straps on an 80, maybe with a small pony, and dives recreational profiles. These people certainly should have ditchable weights.

In YOUR view. In my view, they dont.

Like everyone else on a no D dive, the minor risk of getting bent or getting an AGE is outweighed by the more serious risk of drowning if I have a serious gear failure or, for whatever reason, I need to be rescued by someone else.

Even in the "recreational" range, a lost belt at 30 or 40m will send you up, rapidly with a risk of AGE, DCS and other barotrauma.

In of the view they EVERYONE should be able to bail themselves out and not have to rely on a potentially unreliable third party (ie a buddy). That doesnt mean dive solo, it means that outside instruction all divers should be able to sensibly rescue themselves from most situations.

 

[ReefHound]

The emergency is not over until you can maintain positive buoyancy at the surface. Are you telling me a panicked diver is going to have the prescence of mind to remove their BC, ditch their weights and then put it back on? Have you ever dealt with a truly panicked diver before?

Are you teaching your students to dive with all (or mostly) non-ditchable weight? If you are that is a gross violation of standards and I hope I never have to rescue one of your students if they freak at the surface.

A diver in panic is not thinking or following instructions, thus unlikely to ditch even a quick-release weight belt.

I think there are a couple of distinct differences in this thread. The OP asked about "quick release" belt. Some have responded from the point of non-ditchable weight and some have responded from the point of ditchable but just not "quick release".

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Alone on the bottom. OK so im solo diving. Nothing wrong with that. However as im solo diving i'll be carrying independent air sources. Quite how i can suddenly lose all my air from a twinset or independent cylinders i have no idea. Why not enlighten me?
Secondly, why would i want to be negative on the bottom? Would my wing have failed, my BC failed, my SMB sprung a leak AND all my air gone from both cylinders? Suspect you'd need to be machine gunned to get all those failiures at once.
Absolute worst case i'd undo the waist strip on wing, undo weight belt clip and off it goes.


Proper weighting, proper buddy checks and proper entry technique cure that problem. Ditchable weight isnt solving that core problem there.


If a rescue diver has his BC nearly full at depth then the rescuer himself is massively overweighted or carrying about 5 cylinders. If desperate to rocket someone to the surface then out comes the shears or knife and cut the straps. It works and its fast.




So sort out weighting, revist basic training on *controlled* descents. Remember, divers are meant to descend in a controlled fashion that they can arrest the descent immediately for any reason if needed.. His inflator wasnt connected....Buddy check again. Even then where is his buddy who can and should recognise this.



That really doesnt say a lot for his dive skills really. Again, not an argument for ditchable weight. Its an argument for proper buddy checks or self checks if solo and learning how to use the equipment you carry properly (ie the pony).

Again here recommending a ditchable weight isnt solving a problem - its papering over cracks for situations that need no happen in the first place.



Nice in theory but like CESA just about useless in practice. Suddenly becoming 20-30lbs buoyant at depth you're going up, you're going up FAST no matter what you do. You are likely to get bent, or embolise or suffer other forms of trauma related to it. If you have even a small deco obligation rocketing to the surface from that depth is likely to turn that into a severe bend. You can flare all you want but if 20-30lbs positive physics take over and things are going to happen quickly and continue to accelerate no matter what you do.

This isn't about the way you dive it is a question about why someone might want to have ditchable weight in certain situations. Many people dive in wetsuits pretty deep on solo dives and many have no redundancy. For these people, ditchable weight is a viable solution to a bad situation.

The comment that a person would need to be overweighted if their BC was nearly full at depth is totally wrong. You might argue that they have a BC that is too small, but I know that when diving around 100 feet ot more in a wetsuit with a hooded vest, additional hood, 7 mm farmer john and jacket and mittens, that I am at least 20 lbs negative on the bottom at the start of the dive with no air in the BC. I have been using a wing with only about 30 lbs of bouyancy and it is close to full when I start my ascent from depth, sometimes it even burps a little air out of the over pressure valve when I start my ascent from 200 feet when I wear a thick suit. Am I over weighted? No!


Your comment that suddenly becoming 20 or 30 lbs positive will always cause a diver to shoot to the surface is wrong. I have practiced it many times and can absolutely demonstrate that I can control a bouyant ascent when 25 lbs bouyant. It is not difficult, although most beginning divers probably couldn't do it.

If you want to stop the electronic arguement and prove it to yourself, here is how:

This excersice does not involve the breathing of compressed air and you need to be able to hold your breath for 25 seconds and peform a few tasks.

Get your scuba gear on in the pool, put on an appropriate amount of lead then fill the BC to nearly full. Now put an ADDITIONAL 25 lb weight belt on at the surface without breathing from the regulator. Dump just enough air from your BC so that you are just barely bouyant with the extra lead.

Now (while holding your breath) swim down to the bottom of the deep end of the pool and roll over on your back. Press the inflator to add just enough air so that you are barely able to remain negative. Now drop the 25 lb weight belt.

Immediately assume the spread eagle position, keep your ankles bent and try to catch as much water with your body as you ascend. If done properly, the whole exercise takes less than 30 seconds and you may be surprised at how much drag you can make with the body and fins and arms in that position.

I will be willing to bet that you can maintain an ascent rate of around 1 foot per second.

This same exercise can also be done with a freediver wearing a very bouyant suit (maybe 20 lbs or even an inflated BC) and then just putting on 40 lbs of lead, sinking to the bottom and then laying on the bottom and ditching all the weight. Of course if you are snorkeling with 25 lbs too much lead and you can't ditch it for some reason, you could die.


I trained my 10-yr old to do it without much difficulty.



The comments that divers should not be overweighted is certainly correct, but we all know that many divers enter the water overweighted for a variety of reasons. Regardless of why a diver finds himself in this situation, it may be desirable to drop the lead fast.

I have found between 25 and 40 weight belts on the bottom over the years. (I sold about 300 lbs in one shot to the local dive shop and I still have hundreds of pounds of lead). I have no idea how many belts fell off at the surface or the buckle got caught on the ladder when climbing out, but I am willing to bet that some of these belts were intentionally (or unintentionally ditched) on the bottom. Air embolisms are MUCH less frequent than lost weight belts. If a diver keeps their airway open and is not too loaded up with nitrogen, God does watch over MOST of the people that loose weight belts on the bottom.

 

[ReefHound]

I'm just a noob, but the arguments against of ditchable weight sound like the arguments against wearing a seatbelt in a car. "What if the car bursts into flame and you are stuck in your belt?" "The belt interferes with my skills" etc.

They might sound like those arguments if someone could show corresponding statistics that the benefits of ditchable weight outweighed the risks. Until then, this analogy is poor.

 

[ReefHound]

For the pro-ditchable people-

Is my rig ok, even though my weights aren't the typical quick release? (You have to open up the pockets and grab the weight)

That's fine if you have to ditch them but how is your would-be rescuer going to know you have weights in your BC pockets?