Is dive certification really necessary?

[Saniflush]

And it's usually a VERY experienced jumper that dies. Complacency kills and once you're good, it's easy to ignore simple things. I've never had an issue before, I probably won't... and then you do something you KNOW to be stupid, but you've gotten away with it a hundred times, and you die. It doesn't matter who trained you to NOT DO what you're CHOOSING TO DO. It's about you not doing it.

Normalization of deviance is the term I have heard mostly associated with this thinking. It is prevalent in teaching and bringing about a safety culture.

 

[boulderjohn]

No, you said:
"I cited this History of NAUI earlier, written in part by Al Tillman, chief founder of NAUI and previously the director of the Los Angeles County instructional program. In this reflection of the decades of instruction since NAUI's founding, the authors offer the observation that the average student completing an OW course at the time of the writing was at the time of graduation a better diver than the instructors who founded NAUI. Of course, if you start with the assumption that all current instruction sucks, then you will dismiss that observation as well, because nothing will dissuade you."

Not the same thing.

I didn't word it well.

NAUI was founded in 1960 when a group of independent instructors from across the country met in Houston. That meeting was organized by Al Tillman and a few others from Los Angeles, but the whole group worked together, argued things out, etc. According to that history, the group from Chicago, led by someone named Dennis Erickson, had a lot of influence and very nearly became the leaders of the new organization. They were especially insisting that standards be very high. When I used the word "founders" in that sentence, I was referring to the group as a whole, and I was referring to the average. My wording was not clear. Sorry.

By the way, NAUI was always in financial difficulty in its first years because it relied heavily upon donations for its funding, a relic of the use of tax money its leaders in the Los Angeles program. Five years after its creation, it decided it needed to pull back from its national coverage and focus on California. It canceled a major instructor training program in Chicago. The Chicago branch under Erickson responded by forming PADI.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Forgive me but what are Laguna Beach or Point Lobos examples of?

Do you have any examples of the above in the real world? Like, actual activities being victims to overreach? I can get in my boat and go out during a hurricane. While they do dictate what safety equipment I carry, I go above and beyond (cat1 epirb, liferaft, pains wessex flares), their regulation isn't out of reason.

Laguna Beach requires a buddy and a snorkel. I have also witnessed the lifeguard shutting down the beach by noon because he felt the conditions were too big to dive and was not allowing divers to go in.
Point lobos also requires buddies and if you don’t have one you don’t get to dive. If they catch you surfacing at different times in different locations or coming back to the beach alone you get a talking to. I’m not sure if they have the power to fine you or not.

 

[TuckerIdaho]

Laguna Beach requires a buddy and a snorkel. I have also witnessed the lifeguard shutting down the beach by noon because he felt the conditions were too big to dive and was not allowing divers to go in.
Point lobos also requires buddies and if you don’t have one you don’t get to dive. If they catch you surfacing at different times in different locations or coming back to the beach alone you get a talking to. I’m not sure if they have the power to fine you or not.

RE: Lifeguard, then don't dive on that beach? Go to another access point. That's what surfers do.

So why were the city ordinances put in place? What happened that was blamed on the city? They don't just put rules like that in place because they're bored and looking to ruin someone's day.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

RE: Lifeguard, then don't dive on that beach? Go to another access point. That's what surfers do.

So why were the city ordinances put in place? What happened that was blamed on the city? They don't just put rules like that in place because they're bored and looking to ruin someone's day.

I don’t know why, it was before my time. 1962 for Laguna and I don't know when for Lobos.

 

[TuckerIdaho]

I don’t know why, it was before my time. 1962 for Laguna and I don't know when for Lobos.

Point Lobos is a state run park. Laguna is a city ordinance. Both are most likely liability mitigation. Blame lawyers, not government.

 

[Jcp2]

Point Lobos is a state run park. Laguna is a city ordinance. Both are most likely liability mitigation. Blame lawyers, not government.

Blame loved ones of those injured, not lawyers.

 

[2airishuman]

Forgive me but what are Laguna Beach or Point Lobos examples of?

Do you have any examples of the above in the real world? Like, actual activities being victims to overreach? I can get in my boat and go out during a hurricane. While they do dictate what safety equipment I carry, I go above and beyond (cat1 epirb, liferaft, pains wessex flares), their regulation isn't out of reason.

Well, for diving in Minnesota we have:

1) Several cities and counties that require a special permit to dive in lakes in that area. Requirements for a permit vary. Some disallow solo diving. Some require c-cards. Some require notification prior to each dive.
2) Some cities and counties charge a significant fee to use public lakes for scuba instruction
3) There are numerous parks that regulate scuba diving as swimming and do not allow swimming except at a designated areas. Generally the designated areas are too shallow for diving and some outright disallow it

It is now a crime here to operate an ATV off road in a way that creates ruts or disturbs the soil, even on your own private land. There are exemptions for bona fide utility maintenance, farming, and construction activities

Also in the last 10 years there has been piecemeal closure of substantially all non-campground public land to RV camping with the exception of state and national forests

It is a crime to operate an inflatable boat while sitting on the inflatable sponsons, you have to use a bench seat that goes across, which is ludicrous and contributes nothing to safety. People get tickets

There are numerous closures and restrictions on lakes and rivers in the name of invasive species control that conveniently fit the agenda of shoreline landowners

 

[TuckerIdaho]

Well, for diving in Minnesota we have:

Well lets look at most of those, they were enacted by the negligence of participants of said activities. The few ruin it for the many. It's not about government overreach, its about people not playing nice, and everyone pays.

The problem with blaming things on "government overreach" is the fact that it isn't government's fault that they have to act like the world is kindergarten. It's the public's fault. There are lots of activities that are self policing and are doing well without the government getting involved, it's when this stops and people are out to get their own that the government steps in. Because the general populace are spoiled little children who can't be trusted to do the right thing.

They just closed commercial fishing for striped bass in a certain shore location near me. Because people can't be trusted.

 

[tr3a]

Well, for diving in Minnesota we have:

1) Several cities and counties that require a special permit to dive in lakes in that area. Requirements for a permit vary. Some disallow solo diving. Some require c-cards. Some require notification prior to each dive.
2) Some cities and counties charge a significant fee to use public lakes for scuba instruction
3) There are numerous parks that regulate scuba diving as swimming and do not allow swimming except at a designated areas. Generally the designated areas are too shallow for diving and some outright disallow it

It is now a crime here to operate an ATV off road in a way that creates ruts or disturbs the soil, even on your own private land. There are exemptions for bona fide utility maintenance, farming, and construction activities

Also in the last 10 years there has been piecemeal closure of substantially all non-campground public land to RV camping with the exception of state and national forests

It is a crime to operate an inflatable boat while sitting on the inflatable sponsons, you have to use a bench seat that goes across, which is ludicrous and contributes nothing to safety. People get tickets

There are numerous closures and restrictions on lakes and rivers in the name of invasive species control that conveniently fit the agenda of shoreline landowners

Just curious, which counties require a permit?
I know the St Cloud quarries do (not worth the effort), and the Twin cities lakes at various times have required permits in the past. Was not aware of anything on county level, perhaps in southern part of state?