Is dive certification really necessary?

[Dark Wolf]

the authors offer the observation that the average student completing an OW course at the time of the writing was at the time of graduation a better diver than the instructors who founded NAUI.

DW

 

[Celt]

I’ve no idea how to improve diver training as I’ve never even seen a dive course conducted. But one size doesn’t fit all. And there’s a huge difference between a seaman and a landlubber.

 

[Germie]

In my country you can dive without cert. There is no law. For a lot of people this is not the best advice to do. Better advice to take a course.
But some people are autodidacts. And that is a group of people where the dive industry wants to stay away from, but yes, some can become really good without courses, just by self made videos, reading, etc. But this is a small percent, I think less than 1%. So it is a good thing that there are courses to do. But as instructor, respect that sometimes you will have to teach a natural.
But you can make differences, the must do courses, the could be good, and the just for fun courses. Easy to self teach is for example drysuit. BUt if you are unsure, follow a course. Another course that can be done by yourself, but is more difficult to do it right (and right is not the same as safe or unsafe) is sidemount. Gas is gas, a cylinder is a cylinder, trim and bouyancy is trim and bouyancy. But a person to help you to adjust the harnass and cylinders makes it easier to learn. Just hanging and dangling cylinders around you does not mean you dive sidemount, but it is not directly dangerous in open water. But ok, sidemount is maybe the wrong word then.
Courses like biology are just for fun. If you want to learn really something, do it with a biologist. Same with photography.

Happely, you can do some courses together and split them if the diver wants. For example, you can combine aow and a deep diver specialty. Or combine open water with aowd. Or do cavern, intro, full cave in 1 week or split it for experienced divers. This makes that divers most times can find a way to learn that fits.

The biggest problem are divecenters on holidays. They are used to take every customer by hand, but some customers don't need help, don't need guides, prefer maybe solodiving, and know what they are doing. I really hate it when I have to follow a guide with less dives than I have that also has a behaviour like 'I am the boss'. Respect customers, respect customers with more experience than you. Don't waiste time and money from customers by doing a checkdive. Do this for free and before normal dives leave. Only need 10 minutes to see if people can dive. Or don't do this when divers have recent experience and a lot of certs. And important, don't certify a diver that is too unsure to dive. An open water cert already means that the diver must be able to dive with another open water diver WITHOUT guide. Teach it like this. A lot of holidaydivers never dive without guide and never get a level of any self sufficent diving with a buddy in navigation, gasconsumption feelings, etc. Also listen to customers, what do they want?
Here can a lot of safety be won. Don't certify every diver after just 4 open water dives.

 

[NothingClever]

I read something about government oversight or regulation. I’m against that.

That was probably my fault. I used the words ‘regulatory’ and ‘govern’ but I didn’t intend to mean the government should step in and do something like create a new branch of NOAA akin to the accident investigation branch of the FAA.

Non-governmental entities can and do regulate and govern but my word choice was misleading.

That much said, the NOAA and NEDU’s manuals are, to me, refreshing resources that provide a crisp reference point not imbued by profit. Their standards for advanced diving and divemaster qualification, if used voluntarily by certifying agencies, would clean up a lot of the mess we currently observe. Obviously that would stymie the profit potential to be gleaned from the population of casual recreational divers so there isn’t an inherent incentive for the certifying agencies to adopt them.

 

[rob.mwpropane]

I'd say you're being unfair to the majority of instructors out there. What we have to bare in mind is that we only really hear about the really bad divers and the really bad courses and the really bad instructors because they're what we all like to talk about.... but there are thousands of divers who get certified each week around the world (ok maybe not right now), who are well trained by a competent and diligent instructor...

Lets all please take a step back and not throw the baby out with the bath water. The statistics do not back up that the training system is failing. Yes they highlight there are issues, and we all have our own views on how issues are addressed (or not) with the training agencies, but I know for a fact that I and my team dedicate a lot of time and energy with all of our students when we're teaching them, going well beyond the minimum to ensure if they're capable of passing, they pass. Sometimes they may not pass the certification they were starting for (scuba diver vs OW diver etc), but to suggest a diligent experience is the exception as opposed to the norm is grossly over-dramatic

Sorry, I missed this.

I don't think being critical of a less than spectacular system is unfair. If you become an instructor if anything you open yourself up to criticism. That's life. Maybe it's not a failing system although I believe it's highly flawed. If the goal is money, then someone's not failing...

Here where I am it's about turning out the almighty dollar. Almost every scuba shop I've walked into is pushing the dumb ass cert of the week. Why do you have certs like peak buoyancy if it's fundamental for scuba? So I learn to dive, but then I need to learn to dive again because the 1st class wasn't good enough? What is that?

I'm sure that there are some awesome instructors out there, and you may very well be one of them. My experience is that after "graduating" class there were still people using an inflator as an "elevator"? Out of 6 tries a student might be able to not not freak out and clear their mask ONCE...."good job, you did it...PASSED! On to the next bare minimum technique to blow through!". Failing a class....does that happen in places? Again, the exception, not the norm.

It seems to me the industry as a whole is putting out bare minimum vacation divers who will only ever dive once or twice a year and become inherently frustrated because they just don't know what they don't know and haven't been taught. What I learned in OW could have been learned in a coloring book, and lets face it, it basically was.

I'll even go on the flip side of the coin and say I don't think instructors are paid enough for what they're expected to do. There's no way in hell I would consider to teach a group of people scuba in a ~ 6 hr course. I don't think it's all the instructors fault. Your following guidelines set forth by lawyers and greedy corporations....not seasoned divers. The criteria is focused on the bare minimum safety points so when someone dies they can say "look here, page 25, we specifically say blow and go....he forgot to blow, not our fault!". Meanwhile the poor guy knew nothing about gas management, or the fact that he's 17lbs overweight?

Back to @Eric Sedletzky point....there's nothing in OW that I learned that couldn't be self taught in the slightest. The highlight was the fitness model I was buddy'd with....let's just say a real shame it was in a quarry and not the tropics.

 

[Germie]

Back to @Eric Sedletzky point....there's nothing in OW that I learned that couldn't be self taught in the slightest. The highlight was the fitness model I was buddy'd with....let's just say a real shame it was in a quarry and not the tropics.

My open water course did not have any confined water, I just searched for an instructor who said ok, we can do everything directly in open water (I hated pools). And the skills took only 10 minutes. Then it was, hmmm, okay, you already master them, let's go diving.
So yes, I agree with you. BUT. THE BIG BUT: a lot of people cannot do the same, are not naturals, and some of them are not waterfree, are still afraid of water. Also clearing ears and a mask is for a lot of people problematic. But if I had to learn diving in a group with first pool and then open water, I would have been quit and do it on my own I think. I also did same with skiing. 2 hours in a group lesson were so boring that I decided to learn it myself. Later I took some private lessons to learn off piste skiing.
I understand and have to follow standards or guidelines, that was also done in my own open water course. But it is good if a person knows what he wants and a divecenter that also listens. Some learn better in groups, others not. Some learn theory by just reading the book, others need ours of instruction. If there is only massproduction possible, then people quit. Respect the fast learners and respect the slower ones that maybe need 10 dives to get certified for open water. An good instructor is able to make the course fitting for everybody. If a diver already is able to do the skill circuit, just review, and go for a fundive, this is done in standards. If the diver needs 1 hour for the skillcircuit, take that time. Ask the right questions in an intake about how people want to learn theory, etc. For the diver: there are some agencies that are so strict in their standards that for example first a whole day of theory and equipmentreview must be done. This is for me a waist of time, so this course will never be done by me. Choose the course and instructor that fits you. Difficult as beginner, but a good divecenter will ask the righ questions.
And within standards and guidelines you can also fit the autodidactical diver if you can respect such people.

 

[NothingClever]

And the skills took only 10 minutes. Then it was, hmmm, okay, you already master them, let's go diving.

Interesting.

 

[Germie]

Interesting.

It is just a monkey see, monkey do list you have to do in open water. Some find it difficult, others are naturals and do it. Clear mask 1,2,3 ways, find regulator back, put off bcd, put it on again, share gas, vin pivot, etc. Now you do it all in natural bouyancy if you find a good instructor but then it was kneeling. So nothing interesting, just facts. And some need more than 1 dive to master them. Also not a problem with the right instructor. If you do this in a group it will take then 4 times 10 minutes. I spent that 30 minutes on a normal dive to learn real diving.

 

[TuckerIdaho]

Government regulation wouldn’t just stop at certification oversight, it would leak into things like keeping you out of the water for conditions THEY would decide are too big for you that day, or gear THEY decide you need to be safe, or strict buddy protocols etc. just look at Laguna Beach or Point Lobos.

Forgive me but what are Laguna Beach or Point Lobos examples of?

Do you have any examples of the above in the real world? Like, actual activities being victims to overreach? I can get in my boat and go out during a hurricane. While they do dictate what safety equipment I carry, I go above and beyond (cat1 epirb, liferaft, pains wessex flares), their regulation isn't out of reason.

 

[kelemvor]

Well, great thread so far. It’s been hitting the fence here and there a little but so far has stayed on track pretty good.
I read something about government oversight or regulation. I’m against that. Diving is small enough that it’s off the radar. I remember reading a fatality report once about three people who decided to go abalone diving up in Mendocino County. They were diving at Caspar Cove. Anybody interested can google it.
One was from the Bay Area, one was from the Central Valley, and one was from China. They were all friends and two may have been related. All three died within minutes of entering the water due to 18’ swells that day and zero diving experience with any of them. They all rented gear to go diving. They didn’t know what they didn’t know.
The wife of one of the victims was so outraged that diving was legal on the North Coast of CA that see started a campaign to try and make diving illegal. She of course failed in her attempts.
This was an eye opener for many of us because it was the most serious attempt thus far to governmentalize diving and place some sort of restrictions or rules on how where and when we choose to dive.
It was obviously the divers’ fault for not knowing about conditions and when not to go. They were freediving too so no certifications or classes etc. like scuba to guide them.
Government regulation wouldn’t just stop at certification oversight, it would leak into things like keeping you out of the water for conditions THEY would decide are too big for you that day, or gear THEY decide you need to be safe, or strict buddy protocols etc. just look at Laguna Beach or Point Lobos.

In my original idea, a separate entity to certify people had nothing to do with involving the government. It was an idea to break up the cert process by introducing a check and balance system so that shabby instructors couldn’t wizz through people that had no business diving.

I know a guy who has a NAUI cert from the 70’s. He was a competitive freedive Spears and for one tournament he was required to be scuba certified (probably for liability reasons). So this guy calls up a NAUI instructor friend and they do one tank dive to 100’ with a 72 and a plastic backpack and he got scuba certified. No class work, no book, no nothing, one dive and a cert.
The guy eventually found himself years later diving to 200’ one day on a single aluminum 80 in Florida shooting big grouper and realized his reg started to breathe a little hard so he began to head up. At 60’ he couldn’t draw air from his reg anymore so did an emergency ascent to the surface and a few minutes later his shoulder began to swell up with gas bubbles expanding and crackling his fat and tissue under his skin. He said he could hear it snap crackle and pop like cereal. He felt sick and was down for a few weeks after that (with DCS) but never went to a doctor. He’s had five shoulder injuries since. He gave me the reg he did that last dive with, it was an SP MK3 /108. That’s why it started to slowly breath hard because it was unbalanced.

I had to rescue a guy once who supposedly was certified by his brother in law who I found out was PADI. I had to find out because the guy even know what agency he was certified through.
The guy was an absolute imbecile underwater and I was never so stressed trying to deal with this guy. He finally ran out of air (very quickly) at 60’ and I had to rescue him and get him back to shore, which was an ordeal on it’s own because he was in a full state of panic. He couldn’t do some of the most basic things that anybody should be able to do.
But in the end he was OK.

I used to help an instructor with classes years ago. There were a few people that never should have past in my opinion but I wasn’t the instructor either. One lady stands out, that I’ll call the flailer, was so bad that to this day I’m still like, WTH!!

I’m not so sure so much of it is about safety issues per say, there are other problems I see with instructors not teaching much in the way of proper buoyancy which should be one of the most basic things right after “don’t hold your breath”, and the other is proper weighting. Overweighting is at epidemic levels IMO. Not that there are a ton of fatalities from overweighting but I can cite one fatality that happened on a shore dive in San Diego where an overweighted diver was trying swim in on the surface back to the beach and 50’ from shore his inflator hose broke off from his BC and he sank straight to the ocean floor like an anvil. He was recovered in 15’ of water right off the beach. Died of panic, was exhausted from the swim in, shore break was big, he sank and couldn’t find a reg to breathe and died. Grossly overweighted.

The bigger problem I see is environmental damage rather that fatalities from bad or incomplete training. I saw a lot of coral damage that was pointed out by DM’s when I went to the GBR. I’m sure many more divers than I can attest to smashed coral from bad diving habits than me since I don’t travel much. For some reason this problem continues to perpetuate.

So to say that there are bad instructors who sign off bad students, yes it happens. If I’ve seen them then there must be many other people who have to. I’m just one guy.

You're right. Governmental oversight would be a huge pita. However I think there's 0% chance the big agencies are going to do anything significant such as actually oversee their agents (instructors) unless they're forced. There's a huge cost associated with doing that for the big guys because there's so many of their agents in the field.

The agencies (big or small) aren't going to just fold up shop and willingly get rid of their business because it's the right thing to do - if that's the case. I'm not sure there's any kind of consensus about it being the right thing... but I can't imagine anything other than those two solutions being effective at managing the problem.

So we have what we have now. It's nice to dream of something better, even if it isn't realistic.