Is dive certification really necessary?

[boulderjohn]

Not possible, since none of the agencies publicize negative statistics about themselves.

Not possible because nobody has that information, including the agencies. Read through the accident reports on DAN and see how many mention the diver's certifying agency--the answer is pretty much none. If I were to die during scuba, which of the 6 agencies that certified me at some point would get the blame?

A few years ago PADI and DAN did a joint study of fatalities to see what trends they found that related to training. There weren't many. As mentioned earlier, only a very tiny, tiny portion of fatalities can be attributed to a training issue. PADI adjusted its OW standards to emphasize those identified skills. I don't know if any other agencies made any adjustments to their standards.

I'll add another takeaway, one that DAN doesn't explicitly state but is my personal assessment: stupidity.

I have long noted that. When you read the fatality reports, you see some stories that boggle the mind. Here is one that comes from a ScubaBoard thread that became so contentious that it was one of the only times in my experience that a thread was pulled in its entirety. My description of the incident is a little fuzzy from memory failure, but it will be close. What ended up closing the thread was the fact that so many people joined ScubaBoard to participate in the thread, praise the diver's actions, and say that the fatality was due to the fact that sometimes divers die through no fault of their own. What the thread made clear was that for a portion of the diving population, what I am about to describe is normal diving behavior.

This happened off the coast of Louisiana, where two young men were fishing and drinking beer all day. As dusk approached, they decided to dive at an oil platform to spearfish for grouper. They got in the water with partially filled AL 80s and began to search for fish. It was getting dark, and they had no lights. After a while, one of them decided to go down to 200 feet in search of the really big groupers that hang out there. He was never seen again.​

 

[kelemvor]

If I were to die during scuba, which of the 6 agencies that certified me at some point would get the blame

I don't think any of the agencies should necessarily get the blame. I do assume that they know about accidents, since they are affiliated with boats/dive shops who are leading many dives. If a diver dies on your boat, don't you report it to the agency? Obviously if I'm shore diving with a friend or on our private boat they wouldn't know. Knowing about something and being blamed for it aren't the same thing.

 

[2airishuman]

2. There are fewer than 2 deaths per million recreational divers. That's far lower than for many other sports/activities.

Depends how you count divers. If you only count people who have dived at least once in the last year, the statistics are much less favorable.

That death wasn't the fault of poor training, it was the result of very poor decision making

It is a common off-season pastime among SB regulars to pick apart the DAN reports and rationalize their decision to dive by concluding that 90% of the scenarios don't apply to them because they are in good health, don't do stupid things, and are experienced divers.

While the DAN reports (together with the BSAC reports) are the best information that we have, there is an implicit bias inherent in how the data is collected, reported, and codified. The reports tend to emphasize objectively visible facts, that are available to the investigator, as part of causation. Doing this imputes an aura of certainty to the accident chain that in many cases is not justified. For example, it is likely that some of the accidents reported as medical are caused by contaminated gas. Gas isn't tested routinely due to cost and custody problems, and medical reports are private, so investigators guess. As another example, surely some of the accidents DAN has looked at over the years are best understood as suicides, even though no suicides appear in the statistics. Finally, DAN does not go back far enough in the causation chain to identify areas such as training deficiencies as a root cause. We then get the simplistic view that someone died because they did not monitor their SPG, rather than the more nuanced view that perhaps they had not been taught to check their SPG every few minutes or to perform gas planning in a comprehensive way, let alone that the real problem was that there was current an surf and they had no business diving at that site in the first place.

 

[boulderjohn]

Here is the story of a twin fatality that was a big story a few years ago. It is a good one for this thread, because it goes to the question of the need for certification.

A father and his 15-year old son got new scuba equipment for Christmas and decided to try it out at nearby Eagles Nest sink that very day. That is a cave that requires trimix certification and certification beyond full cave. Some people have called it the Everest of cave diving. The father was OW certified, and the son was not certified at all. Pictures show that they had been diving in caves with double tanks for quite some time, so they were self-taught cave divers. They entered the main room, which is at about 150 feet deep, and they left their AL 80 deco bottles with 32% nitrox there. I don't recall what mix was in their doubles--I believe it was air. They entered one of the tunnels and continued to depths exceeding 200 feet before turning around. (I am not sure of the maximum depth; when I dived Eagles Nest with OC doubles, I maxed at 270 feet. I was using trimix with about 60% helium, and I had 50% and 100% for decompression.) They ran out of air before they got back to their deco bottles.

The aftermath is interesting. The family has fought a multi-year battle, which to my knowledge is still continuing, to have that cave closed to all diving. Their reasoning is that if such very highly skilled divers as those two perished in that cave, then the cave must be a death trap which must be closed to everyone. If those two at the zenith of scuba skill died, then lesser skilled divers would not have a chance.

 

[boulderjohn]

Finally, DAN does not go back far enough in the causation chain to identify areas such as training deficiencies as a root cause.

They tell objectively what happened, and the reader can easily see if something is related to training.

As I wrote above, DAN and PADI did a specific study to identify training issues related to scuba fatalities, so they are not ducking the issue.

 

[Outbound]

Depends how you count divers. If you only count people who have dived at least once in the last year, the statistics are much less favorable.



It is a common off-season pastime among SB regulars to pick apart the DAN reports and rationalize their decision to dive by concluding that 90% of the scenarios don't apply to them because they are in good health, don't do stupid things, and are experienced divers.

While the DAN reports (together with the BSAC reports) are the best information that we have, there is an implicit bias inherent in how the data is collected, reported, and codified. The reports tend to emphasize objectively visible facts, that are available to the investigator, as part of causation. Doing this imputes an aura of certainty to the accident chain that in many cases is not justified. For example, it is likely that some of the accidents reported as medical are caused by contaminated gas. Gas isn't tested routinely due to cost and custody problems, and medical reports are private, so investigators guess. As another example, surely some of the accidents DAN has looked at over the years are best understood as suicides, even though no suicides appear in the statistics. Finally, DAN does not go back far enough in the causation chain to identify areas such as training deficiencies as a root cause. We then get the simplistic view that someone died because they did not monitor their SPG, rather than the more nuanced view that perhaps they had not been taught to check their SPG every few minutes or to perform gas planning in a comprehensive way, let alone that the real problem was that there was current an surf and they had no business diving at that site in the first place.

As mentioned in my example, DAN specifically stated what was known about the father and son dive (sharing a tank, etc.) and what may have played a role in the death (acute decompression or perhaps underlying health issue related to the amphetamines found in the tox report). My point though, is that regardless of what actually caused the death in that case, the divers did what no certifying agency trains new divers to do. Perhaps they were not certified. Perhaps their instructor told them/trained them that what they did was fine. But no agency has that in their standards, that's for sure.

Yes, many of us like to pick apart various diving accident reports as a way to assuage any anxiety we might have about the dangers of diving. That's human nature and extends well beyond just diving. But, let's face it - lots of people do stupid things and pay the ultimate price precisely because of their stupidity. And, of course, countless more people do not do those stupid things and they put in many years and even decades of perfectly safe living, and diving. Can I tell you that I will never get into a situation where I might panic and bolt for the surface? No, not with 100% certainty. Can I tell you that I will never decide to share a tank with another diver for an entire dive AND not bother to monitor the air pressure like a hawk? Yes, yes I can. Will that keep me from dying while diving? Nope. But it will keep me from dying because of that specific type of stupidity.

 

[Nathan Doty]

Not possible because nobody has that information, including the agencies. Read through the accident reports on DAN and see how many mention the diver's certifying agency--the answer is pretty much none. If I were to die during scuba, which of the 6 agencies that certified me at some point would get the blame?

A few years ago PADI and DAN did a joint study of fatalities to see what trends they found that related to training. There weren't many. As mentioned earlier, only a very tiny, tiny portion of fatalities can be attributed to a training issue. PADI adjusted its OW standards to emphasize those identified skills. I don't know if any other agencies made any adjustments to their standards.

I have long noted that. When you read the fatality reports, you see some stories that boggle the mind. Here is one that comes from a ScubaBoard thread that became so contentious that it was one of the only times in my experience that a thread was pulled in its entirety. My description of the incident is a little fuzzy from memory failure, but it will be close. What ended up closing the thread was the fact that so many people joined ScubaBoard to participate in the thread, praise the diver's actions, and say that the fatality was due to the fact that sometimes divers die through no fault of their own. What the thread made clear was that for a portion of the diving population, what I am about to describe is normal diving behavior.

This happened off the coast of Louisiana, where two young men were fishing and drinking beer all day. As dusk approached, they decided to dive at an oil platform to spearfish for grouper. They got in the water with partially filled AL 80s and began to search for fish. It was getting dark, and they had no lights. After a while, one of them decided to go down to 200 feet in search of the really big groupers that hang out there. He was never seen again.​

Not a direct relation, but when I was in my early 20's I used to jump out of planes for fun. That is a dangerous hobby, if things go wrong there's not a lot of time to fix an issue. But only about 1 in 100,000 jumps end in death (ignoring injuries). A majority of the fatalities have something in common. It's not lack of training, it's doing things in opposition of training. And it's usually a VERY experienced jumper that dies. Complacency kills and once you're good, it's easy to ignore simple things. I've never had an issue before, I probably won't... and then you do something you KNOW to be stupid, but you've gotten away with it a hundred times, and you die. It doesn't matter who trained you to NOT DO what you're CHOOSING TO DO. It's about you not doing it.

 

[Esprise Me]

I've said before that I think it would be a good idea to include more contingency planning in OW training. (Did I ever kick a hornet's nest with that suggestion.) However, I admit I can't be sure that would measurably improve safety. I'm still not seeing much to suggest that divers are dying in the kinds of environments/conditions they were trained for because they weren't taught what to do. Instead, I'm seeing a lot of divers dying because they're not physically fit, because they went beyond the environment they were trained for, because they didn't maintain their skills, or because they did something stupid they were specifically told not to do. And I'm seeing a few divers getting a scare because they encountered something they weren't prepared for--which I still think is a problem worth addressing--but the fact is they're mostly not dying from it, or even getting seriously hurt. But again, I'm open to having my mind changed with even anecdotal examples of people getting hurt by things not covered by their training that should have been.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Well, great thread so far. It’s been hitting the fence here and there a little but so far has stayed on track pretty good.
I read something about government oversight or regulation. I’m against that. Diving is small enough that it’s off the radar. I remember reading a fatality report once about three people who decided to go abalone diving up in Mendocino County. They were diving at Caspar Cove. Anybody interested can google it.
One was from the Bay Area, one was from the Central Valley, and one was from China. They were all friends and two may have been related. All three died within minutes of entering the water due to 18’ swells that day and zero diving experience with any of them. They all rented gear to go diving. They didn’t know what they didn’t know.
The wife of one of the victims was so outraged that diving was legal on the North Coast of CA that see started a campaign to try and make diving illegal. She of course failed in her attempts.
This was an eye opener for many of us because it was the most serious attempt thus far to governmentalize diving and place some sort of restrictions or rules on how where and when we choose to dive.
It was obviously the divers’ fault for not knowing about conditions and when not to go. They were freediving too so no certifications or classes etc. like scuba to guide them.
Government regulation wouldn’t just stop at certification oversight, it would leak into things like keeping you out of the water for conditions THEY would decide are too big for you that day, or gear THEY decide you need to be safe, or strict buddy protocols etc. just look at Laguna Beach or Point Lobos.

In my original idea, a separate entity to certify people had nothing to do with involving the government. It was an idea to break up the cert process by introducing a check and balance system so that shabby instructors couldn’t wizz through people that had no business diving.

I know a guy who has a NAUI cert from the 70’s. He was a competitive freedive Spears and for one tournament he was required to be scuba certified (probably for liability reasons). So this guy calls up a NAUI instructor friend and they do one tank dive to 100’ with a 72 and a plastic backpack and he got scuba certified. No class work, no book, no nothing, one dive and a cert.
The guy eventually found himself years later diving to 200’ one day on a single aluminum 80 in Florida shooting big grouper and realized his reg started to breathe a little hard so he began to head up. At 60’ he couldn’t draw air from his reg anymore so did an emergency ascent to the surface and a few minutes later his shoulder began to swell up with gas bubbles expanding and crackling his fat and tissue under his skin. He said he could hear it snap crackle and pop like cereal. He felt sick and was down for a few weeks after that (with DCS) but never went to a doctor. He’s had five shoulder injuries since. He gave me the reg he did that last dive with, it was an SP MK3 /108. That’s why it started to slowly breath hard because it was unbalanced.

I had to rescue a guy once who supposedly was certified by his brother in law who I found out was PADI. I had to find out because the guy even know what agency he was certified through.
The guy was an absolute imbecile underwater and I was never so stressed trying to deal with this guy. He finally ran out of air (very quickly) at 60’ and I had to rescue him and get him back to shore, which was an ordeal on it’s own because he was in a full state of panic. He couldn’t do some of the most basic things that anybody should be able to do.
But in the end he was OK.

I used to help an instructor with classes years ago. There were a few people that never should have past in my opinion but I wasn’t the instructor either. One lady stands out, that I’ll call the flailer, was so bad that to this day I’m still like, WTH!!

I’m not so sure so much of it is about safety issues per say, there are other problems I see with instructors not teaching much in the way of proper buoyancy which should be one of the most basic things right after “don’t hold your breath”, and the other is proper weighting. Overweighting is at epidemic levels IMO. Not that there are a ton of fatalities from overweighting but I can cite one fatality that happened on a shore dive in San Diego where an overweighted diver was trying swim in on the surface back to the beach and 50’ from shore his inflator hose broke off from his BC and he sank straight to the ocean floor like an anvil. He was recovered in 15’ of water right off the beach. Died of panic, was exhausted from the swim in, shore break was big, he sank and couldn’t find a reg to breathe and died. Grossly overweighted.

The bigger problem I see is environmental damage rather that fatalities from bad or incomplete training. I saw a lot of coral damage that was pointed out by DM’s when I went to the GBR. I’m sure many more divers than I can attest to smashed coral from bad diving habits than me since I don’t travel much. For some reason this problem continues to perpetuate.

So to say that there are bad instructors who sign off bad students, yes it happens. If I’ve seen them then there must be many other people who have to. I’m just one guy.

 

[BRT]

I am telling you that in that history, they said that the average new OW diver when they wrote the history was a better diver than the average instructor when they formed the organization. They said it, not me. I have no ability to judge, since I was not there then. You apparently have the ability to say they were wrong. Perhaps you should share your knowledge of the average instructor at NAUI's founding.

No, you said:
"I cited this History of NAUI earlier, written in part by Al Tillman, chief founder of NAUI and previously the director of the Los Angeles County instructional program. In this reflection of the decades of instruction since NAUI's founding, the authors offer the observation that the average student completing an OW course at the time of the writing was at the time of graduation a better diver than the instructors who founded NAUI. Of course, if you start with the assumption that all current instruction sucks, then you will dismiss that observation as well, because nothing will dissuade you."

Not the same thing.