Is dive certification really necessary?

[Couch]

I went to a very large dive center in South Florida last year with a guy who wanted to start diving, and they would sell him all the gear he needed but would not fill tanks. The sales clerk asked if he'd ever done any diving at all, and he said yes, he'd even been certified, at a Caribbean resort, in like 1986. She looked in her computer at the PADI site, and sure enough, the certification popped right up, and he was good to go with anything he wanted to do. He told me right up front that he was no more qualified to dive than a raw beginner -- the resort certification had involved pool training and a small number of open water dives, and he did okay with them, but had never dived again, not once, and never owned any equipment other than fins mask and snorkel for vacation beach diving. Anyway, I was kind of shocked that he was good to go some thirty years after really shaky training at a resort, but he was. (He bought the gear and went on to a regular training course, because he was no fool.) I think you can get pretty good training at PADI centers and other certifying centers, but you have to keep in mind that the instructors can't just pour knowledge and experience into your head, you actually have to learn things, and youtube videos ain't the same thing as time in the water.

 

[rob.mwpropane]

Well, for diving in Minnesota we have:

1) Several cities and counties that require a special permit to dive in lakes in that area. Requirements for a permit vary. Some disallow solo diving. Some require c-cards. Some require notification prior to each dive.
2) Some cities and counties charge a significant fee to use public lakes for scuba instruction
3) There are numerous parks that regulate scuba diving as swimming and do not allow swimming except at a designated areas. Generally the designated areas are too shallow for diving and some outright disallow it

It is now a crime here to operate an ATV off road in a way that creates ruts or disturbs the soil, even on your own private land. There are exemptions for bona fide utility maintenance, farming, and construction activities

Also in the last 10 years there has been piecemeal closure of substantially all non-campground public land to RV camping with the exception of state and national forests

It is a crime to operate an inflatable boat while sitting on the inflatable sponsons, you have to use a bench seat that goes across, which is ludicrous and contributes nothing to safety. People get tickets

There are numerous closures and restrictions on lakes and rivers in the name of invasive species control that conveniently fit the agenda of shoreline landowners

That sounds like a small communist country!

 

[_john]

I know someone who is certified and they've never actually had to show their card. I know they are certified because I've seen the logbook and the C-card so it's not a myth but somehow he managed to dive and get mixed in and they were never checked because they dove with someone else who was known at the location. And the location doesn't check him because he is known to them. So it's entirely possible to dive and get away with it. And it's entirely possible to learn on your own and even get good at it. The same goes for driving, you could teach yourself and drive and maybe never have an issue, but that one time you do have an issue things go from bad to very bad quickly.

A lot of those destinations push out certifications with the bare minimum skills to get you in the water and out the door. It is ultimately the diver's responsibility to learn and practice those skills going forward and we all know if you don't use it, you lose it. That's why I am diving cold water with a handful of attractions a lot. I'm trying to get really good at it and hone my skills to be a good and safe diver.

 

[TMHeimer]

That sounds like a small communist country!

Nah, add "no place anywhere to ever park legally" and you have NY (especially L.I.).

 

[Jake 10]

Nah, add "no place anywhere to ever park legally" and you have NY (especially L.I.).

 

[TuckerIdaho]

Nah, add "no place anywhere to ever park legally if you are a non-resident" and you have NY (especially L.I.).

Fixed it for you.

 

[2airishuman]

Just curious, which counties require a permit?
I know the St Cloud quarries do (not worth the effort), and the Twin cities lakes at various times have required permits in the past. Was not aware of anything on county level, perhaps in southern part of state?

Washington County (Square Lake) (no permit required except for instruction. Proof of $500,000 liability cover, must have proof of being a "certified scuba instructor" on file with the county, plus $100 annual permit fee to teach)
City of Minneapolis (Bde Makas Ka, Lake of the Isles, Lake Harriet, etc) (free permit but have to take an invasive species class)
Dakota County Parks (Holland Lake, Schulze Lake, Byllesby) (no scuba diving allowed without a special permit for a particular dive e.g. to retrieve lost objects)
City of Apple Valley (Lac Lavon) (free recreational permit or $100 a year instruction permit and must call in advance every time)
City of St. Paul (has signs posted at several Mississippi River access points)

 

[Esprise Me]

Laguna Beach requires a buddy and a snorkel. I have also witnessed the lifeguard shutting down the beach by noon because he felt the conditions were too big to dive and was not allowing divers to go in.

I don't know about the buddy requirement because I always have one for beach dives anyway, but they have definitely stopped caring about whether you have a snorkel. The lifeguards have been out enforcing masks, social distancing, and for a while limited hours and active recreation only, but they've smiled and waved me by with no snorkel every time.

I'm still confused as to how it would improve standards to have instructors certify one another's students. If anything, I imagine I'd feel more pressure to certify someone sent to me by a friend than if I'd trained that person myself.

I also don't really get the hate for the peak performance bouyancy course. I guess maybe some of you have encountered more aggressive salespeople than I have; no one ever tried to sell me that course, though I did see it recommended to a new diver who was determined but really struggling with the basics. Some people take to diving very easily; others need a lot of help. Hypothetically, let's say 10% of people could learn to dive without a course, another 15% could get by with a shorter course, 50% could become competent divers with a full OW course, 15% needed a bit of mentorship and practice after but not necessarily more formal instruction, and 10% need a lot more help. Should we make the OW course longer and more expensive to help the bottom 10%, and maybe the next 15% in case they didn't have a mentor? Or should we keep the course as it is and offer additional courses to those who want or need them? How much would the numbers have to change to change your answer? I suppose we could agree that if 90% of divers coming out of OW were totally incompetent, that would mean the system needed fixing... but does anyone think that?

 

[BRT]

I don't know about the buddy requirement because I always have one for beach dives anyway, but they have definitely stopped caring about whether you have a snorkel. The lifeguards have been out enforcing masks, social distancing, and for a while limited hours and active recreation only, but they've smiled and waved me by with no snorkel every time.

I'm still confused as to how it would improve standards to have instructors certify one another's students. If anything, I imagine I'd feel more pressure to certify someone sent to me by a friend than if I'd trained that person myself.

I also don't really get the hate for the peak performance bouyancy course. I guess maybe some of you have encountered more aggressive salespeople than I have; no one ever tried to sell me that course, though I did see it recommended to a new diver who was determined but really struggling with the basics. Some people take to diving very easily; others need a lot of help. Hypothetically, let's say 10% of people could learn to dive without a course, another 15% could get by with a shorter course, 50% could become competent divers with a full OW course, 15% needed a bit of mentorship and practice after but not necessarily more formal instruction, and 10% need a lot more help. Should we make the OW course longer and more expensive to help the bottom 10%, and maybe the next 15% in case they didn't have a mentor? Or should we keep the course as it is and offer additional courses to those who want or need them? How much would the numbers have to change to change your answer? I suppose we could agree that if 90% of divers coming out of OW were totally incompetent, that would mean the system needed fixing... but does anyone think that?

I wonder if over 10% of divers coming out of OW courses are actually capable of organizing their gear, putting it together, setting their computer and doing a shore dive, all on their own, a year after certification? I sure see a lot of divers in warm water that need all the help they can get from the DM.

 

[ATJ]

Queensland's regulations: https://www.worksafe.qld.gov.au/__d...rkelling+text+link&utm_campaign=dive-industry