Is Deep Air / Light Deco (bounce?) Discussible on ScubaBoard?

[Thalassamania]

I have no "formal" Nitrox training, just some time talking with Morgan Wells. As a result, when Dick and Bret each started their organizations, they both saw fit to sprinkle me with their brands of holy water (in vain hope, I expect, that I'd send them money every year).

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

they won't do it.

The fact is, all this cuss and discuss is moot.

...

The critical thinkers and analyzers may or may not dive deep on air, but if they do, they will have trained and assessed the risk.

And by moving this thread to the General Tech forum we seem to have stacked the odds towards critical thinkers as viewer/participants.

Excuse the generalizing but; OK, fine, the West Coast divers have their $hit covered, so no need air; got it!

My intentions is having some proper discussion where the most at risk divers might stumble upon the discussion.

Are people interested enough in Tech to come to the general Tech Forum really the people who most need to see the discussion?

My Tri-Mix Instructor friend laughed at the idea of an open circuit Tri-Mix class on Maui; maybe over $2,000 on gas. He said he would teach Tri-Mix CCR, but it would still cost more than lots of places with better deep diving.

IMHO, the critical thinkers and analyzers are also going to all be different, but they are far from the most at risk of divers with regards to deep air.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I have no "formal" Nitrox training, just some time talking with Morgan Wells. As a result, when Dick and Bret each started their organizations, they both saw fit to sprinkle me with their brands of holy water (in vain hope, I expect, that I'd send them money every year).

Exactly!

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Err ... that's like manner (as in behavior rather than house).

or a play back to HALEmano?

 

[VooDooGasMan]

Hyde, reading pyle's stuff is very important I agree, and read all of rich's background for a more in depth of an experienced divers diving practices and what he has learned from it. The thing is when Deep air diving it is yourself not another person and only you can determine if you can make the dive.

Knowone has made a great point on NWG and TS&M, not only do they have only a few years experience they also are in the instructor/teaching status so they are still learning, most of what they give for an answers on post are just what you can get from any training material, and some experience themselves. These types of divers are into teaching skills, so they are very good at them or they are trying to get better at them, NWG is a solo diver so I give him a bit of credit on self reliance. There outlook in Deep Air is never going to over come them.

Prime example is they teach CESA in OW, I would have to say that divers run out of air because they remember they just have to go to the surface letting air out of there lungs. SORRY that is not an option in the self contained underwater breathing apparatus application. If you have run out of air it would usually mean you were using way more air then you would usually there fore your starving for air and wont be able to hold your breathe BOOM YOUR DEAD.

Deep Air Diving is not in the technical area of diving at all. Technical Diving is other then 21% and when you are diving helium and have to make a CESA and make it to the surface and do not make it to the chamber in time BOOM YOUR DEAD.

Diving is a very simple thing to do and that's why kids and old people do it, it is for everyone. As long as you monitor your gauges you will live, each dive you can learn something new, The OW class is an Intro to diving and only you yourself can learn how to dive, so learning here on scubaboard and taking training classes is how to get you in that direction that you want to be at.

Again AIR is the most Important thing you must maintain and Air is the safest way to SCUBA dive. Deep Air Diving is no doubt going to be just below you and your going to sink and it is up to you if your going end up at the bottom with air or no air. The bounce dive at the beginning is the skill tester first you go down a little deeper and see how much air it is to do it and then you start running into narcosis and eventually you realize what your safe max depth is, not a big deal at all divers been doing it for 70 years.



I listen to morgan and how he lived in the NOAA world and talking with him he does have great experience and yet had all the safety equipment at hand to cure troubles at depth on nitrox, although when your out rec diving it is just you.

Nitrox has a place in diving and that is in the technical area.


Air diving is not I repeat not technical diving, Devon I just do not agree, although you did open the thread to let the discussion evolve.

 

[waterpirate]

As in my day job, safety is a choice. Any risk taken based on economics is not valid IMHO.

I know nothing of the west coast, but I can tell you alot about the Atlantic. Here there is a straight line drawn between accidents that were preventable when the choice was made to dive air, rather than mix based on economics. All that info trickled down long before the advent of mix classes being readily available and is a universal truth here.

I defend your right to do as you like, but have question with choices based on price of helium. If I were you, and I am not, I would back away from the keyboard a little more often and figure out how to import helium to my garage.

Eric

And by moving this thread to the General Tech forum we seem to have stacked the odds towards critical thinkers as viewer/participants.

Excuse the generalizing but; OK, fine, the West Coast divers have their $hit covered, so no need air; got it!

My intentions is having some proper discussion where the most at risk divers might stumble upon the discussion.

Are people interested enough in Tech to come to the general Tech Forum really the people who most need to see the discussion?

My Tri-Mix Instructor friend laughed at the idea of an open circuit Tri-Mix class on Maui; maybe over $2,000 on gas. He said he would teach Tri-Mix CCR, but it would still cost more than lots of places with better deep diving.

IMHO, the critical thinkers and analyzers are also going to all be different, but they are far from the most at risk of divers with regards to deep air.

 

[gsk3]

20/20
I believe the long boat journey(12hrs) and it was the first dive of the trip that probably contributed the narcosis.

By comparison, at 52m two weeks ago, I dove 45% He. If you believe the O2 to be narcotic as well (e.g. if you calculate Equivalent Narcotic Depth rather than Equivalent Nitrogen Depth), then 20% He brings you down to 36-37m END. That's a big reduction, but still greater than the 30m END recommended by the most conservative agencies. Maybe try 30-35% next time if you're expecting a heavy workload?

Hydreliox: I don't consider anything above 1.4 a death sentence. First of all, even conservative agencies with a 1.2 standard argue for 1.6 on deco--the workload/CO2 makes a difference. But aside from that, my point was that someone who routinely dives to 1.8 on the working part of a dive should be very careful making public recommendations without making it very clear the level of risk they find acceptable. It's a clear quantification of the degree to which their risk tolerance is very different from the general public. If halemano said to the average vacation diver--here, do this, it will double or triple your risk but the absolute level of risk is still pretty low...about as low as skydiving (1 per 100,000 jumps)--most would not choose to dive to such a high ppO2 (or END, or whatever he's recommending). I don't have a problem with *him* doing so, but I do have a problem with him recommending things without making very clear the level of risk he's asking others to take on.

 

[DevonDiver]

And by moving this thread to the General Tech forum we seem to have stacked the odds towards critical thinkers as viewer/participants.
....My intentions is having some proper discussion where the most at risk divers might stumble upon the discussion.

There's a number of issues with that. Firstly, the site TOS specifically mention the 'advocation of dangerous practices, as defined by the major agencies'. Any dive deeper than 40m, in excess of 1.4-1.6ppO2, or going into deco (without appropriate training) is going to fall foul of those TOS. It doesn't matter what you, or I, consider dangerous... and it isn't open for debate... it follows the major scuba agencies safe diving recommendations - and those are easily available for reference if not known.

To conduct the discussion, from a technical diving perspective, it isn't breaking any rules. What's more, the nature of the beast is clearly identified by the choice of target forum. Choice of appropriate forum is critical in defining the relative complexity of the issue and, in itself, presents an ideal caveat that the subject matter is something that shouldn't be replicated, or acted upon, without appropriate experience, training, equipment and qualification.

Pop this in basic scuba... and what is the tacit message being passed on? That deep/deco diving is a basic scuba issue?

Hmm... maybe the advanced forum... but then, nobody on this board can form a consensus about what level the advanced scuba section is aimed at. Half our members think that AOW course dives, 'basic weighting guidelines' and 'how to rig a cam-band' are advanced scuba topics. There's be a huge disconnect throwing a high-level, theoretical debate about a truly advanced diving topic into that cooking pot.

Now... the technical diving forum is open-access to the whole membership of Scubaboard. Anyone can come here...read posts...even participate... should they wish to address the more complex and advanced aspects of scuba diving. All the posts/threads here show up on the 'New Posts' search screen - and that's what most members use to browse the board. They'll see the posts here...and if interested, they'll come and read them, maybe even ask some questions. Don't underestimate the amount of lurkers here.

However, in coming here, they also become aware of a very obvious caveat... that this topic is serious... that it may be beyond their training...and that things discussed here shouldn't be replicated without some serious consideration. I think that is abundantly fair and prudent.

 

[VooDooGasMan]

And why not a Deep air in this forum, for god's sake advance dive magazine is here and has almost no traffic except curt, I did not go there, but in todays post when I see it no ever really post. and you have to scroll down to find this thread, come on devon lets put a Deep Air up and see how it goes, If it is as dead as the curts mag section then end it, If it has high traffic lets see how it goes can't hurt.

 

[shoredivr]

Deep Air Diving is not in the technical area of diving at all. Technical Diving is other then 21% .....

Nitrox has a place in diving and that is in the technical area.


Air diving is not I repeat not technical diving.

In the eighties the idea that nitrox was evil voodo gas was put forward by many agencies. Then it might have been a common agreement that all nitrox was a technical gas, but today no agency says 32% or 36% falls into the technical category. There are many benefits from these specific reduced amounts of nitrogen for the agencies to not promote 32% - 36% nitrox as a recreational mix for pO2 of below 1.4 (including, of course, increased revenue).

A dive using air to 155 ft for 30 minutes is most certainly a technical dive. VDGM, the points you are making are not factual and I say this as someone who solo dives and has done air dives to the 150 range on coldwater wrecks that require decompression schedules.

You're just digging a deeper hole.