Is certification necessary for shallow water diving?

[rick00001967]

Why?

i agree with you that no one should get paid for their own stupidity.

but the reality is, in north america at least, that if some uncertified diver got a fill at one of these, then gets himself killed, you can bet the operator of that fill station will be named in a law suit.

it's always someone elses fault right? lol

 

[ballsie]

I am not here to say it is not necessary to get certified, but I would like to have a discussion and hear other people’s opinions. Do you believe that from a safety stand point, it is necessary to get certified if you plan to stay in the 40 foot range? I know, “No shop will rent or sell you gear!”

My oldest son was certified at age 14, and the shop allowed me to be in the pool with him to observe. Needless to say I not was super thrilled at the extent of his training. No real work on buoyancy, just kneel on the bottom and clear your mask, remove your primary and grab your octo, take your buddies octo for out of air practice, etc… At that point I knew I was not comfortable with him doing deepish dives. I did take him to a pool we had access to, and we worked on his buoyancy, and after a minute his buoyancy was better than mine. Because I was not comfortable with his training, we have stuck to Blue Heron bridge and Lauderdale by the sea. In those very easy dives, he did great. Also the book work was not very through, mostly at home computer stuff. Dive tables were briefly looked over, and as we were looking over them with the instructor, I realized how little I remembered about them after my certification 20 years prior. The instructor did say something along the line of “Just get a computer and you won’t need to know the tables.” This shop is no longer open today. I feel as if I wasted money on his certification.

Part of the reason I ask is because I have friends that have shown interest in diving. I have allowed them to use my back up gear and we swam around in a pool. They did great, no problems at all. One friend and I went to a small private lake and swam around. He asked me, “Why should I spend $1,000 on certification when you have all the gear I need? Plus the computer tells me everything I need to know.”

Sorry for the late night ramblings, I am on some pain medications.

Because if it all goes pear shaped the judge will hold you responsible as your the certified person present
I suggest you give your head a wobble or maybe take up golf

 

[DiveProKoko]

I am not here to say it is not necessary to get certified, but I would like to have a discussion and hear other people’s opinions. Do you believe that from a safety stand point, it is necessary to get certified if you plan to stay in the 40 foot range?....

Yes

...... Needless to say I not was super thrilled at the extent of his training. No real work on buoyancy, just kneel on the bottom and clear your mask, remove your primary and grab your octo, take your buddies octo for out of air practice, etc… At that point I knew I was not comfortable with him doing deepish dives.

The point of OW class is to teach the basics. There will be some work on buoyancy the class progresses, etc. but experience makes you a great diver, not an OW class. Is it possible you visited his pool class on night one or two and never saw the rest?

........ In those very easy dives, he did great.

See point above. You may not have "been happy" with this training, but it apparently prepared him for easy, shallow dives to your satisfaction.

......... The instructor did say something along the line of “Just get a computer and you won’t need to know the tables.”

Right or wrong, tables are out the window for modern divers and no operator in the world that I know of allows you to dive table profiles. In a basic course there is no point in wasting valuable class time to explain, in detail, a tool they will never use as a modern diver. That's why tables are used only to show how bottom time and surface intervals are relevant....and why computers are superior. We DO cover computer usage and use them on OW training dives.

......One friend and I went to a small private lake and swam around. He asked me, “Why should I spend $1,000 on certification when you have all the gear I need? Plus the computer tells me everything I need to know.”

Curious where an OW class costs $1000 bucks, but not the issue here. Diving, regardless of the safety record, is an potentially dangerous activity that can kill you if you aren't trained. Does a computer teach you to replace and clear a mask if it gets kicked off...and how to act like a buddy if it does? Retrieve a regulator? Plan a dive with considerations for depth and current? How to assist an incapacitated buddy? Lost buddy procedures? How to clear from an entanglement? Do what you want with loaning your gear. You're an adult. But yes....get trained.

 

[thbcthomas]

Because if it all goes pear shaped the judge will hold you responsible as your the certified person present
I suggest you give your head a wobble or maybe take up golf

@ballsie I tired golf once and it wasnt for me. I will stick to scuba. Welcome to the board!

 

[ballsie]

A 10 foot dive will kill you if you hold your breath and ascend . Training -- thus certification-- helps prevent that.

Help prevent thats an understatement

 

[Miyaru]

i agree with you that no one should get paid for their own stupidity.

but the reality is, in north america at least, that if some uncertified diver got a fill at one of these, then gets himself killed, you can bet the operator of that fill station will be named in a law suit.

it's always someone elses fault right? lol

If you didn't read the instructions, it's not the fill-station owner's fault.
If you didn't follow the instructions, it's not the fill-station owner's fault.

So theoretically, a diver breaks these rules and fills a dodgy cylinder. The valve bursts out of the cylinder, damaging the fill station and the cylinder shoots away, going through a parked car, and killing an innocent bystander as a bonus.

How is the operator of that fill station responsible? The guilty person is the idiot who broke the rules.

 

[ballsie]

What you're actually saying imo is: the training is not worth the money because the instructor does'nt do his job right.

I would agree with that. The majority of dive instructors should do a better job. It's hard to find a really good instructor not knowing anything about diving.

The open water cert is simply a licence to buy air, you learn to dive once you have that foundation knowledge, to try and miss out this crucial step in a divers training is absolutely ludicrous, You will not be insured in event of an accident, and you as the certified person present will be held liable, certainly in uk.
Scuba is a hazardous sport and you need to have the correct training. The thought of a dive buddy not being qualified is just stupid
Diving requires constant risk assement before , during and after a dive
I cannot believe anyone would even ask this question

 

[ballsie]

If you didn't read the instructions, it's not the fill-station owner's fault.
If you didn't follow the instructions, it's not the fill-station owner's fault.

So theoretically, a diver breaks these rules and fills a dodgy cylinder. The valve bursts out of the cylinder, damaging the fill station and the cylinder shoots away, going through a parked car, and killing an innocent bystander as a bonus.

How is the operator of that fill station responsible? The guilty person is the idiot who broke the rules.

The fill station should check the cylinder to ensure its in test, accidents
do happen but not for one single reason
I think your hypothetical scenario is just a bit Alice in Wonder land

 

[USdiver1]

stupidity doesn't get you money in court.

This should be wtitten in stone across the facade of every courthouse in America.

 

[Miyaru]

The fill station should check the cylinder to ensure its in test, accidents
do happen but not for one single reason
I think your hypothetical scenario is just a bit Alice in Wonder land

It's not a hypothetical scenario, as there are numerous filling stations, used by hundreds of divers yearly.
And they're not located in Wonderland but in the real world.

When you own a cylinder, it is your responsibility to have a valid hydro.

We can start an endless discussion about this, in the end everybody will admit that US tort laws would make a service like this simply impossible.
Tort law allows for stupidity to be rewarded with monetary compensation. Tort lawyers will totally disagree, as their livelihood depends on it.