Is a BW/Wings setup appropriate for instructors?

[mth71]

As the heading suggests, this question is aimed more toward instructors, although other divers who have something to share are of course welcome to give their input.

As a newly certified diver (as of September), I am looking to get my first set of gear very shortly. After much research on this board, I have decided that I want a BP setup. I've also decided that I want to become a scuba instructor, and plan on starting my divemaster training just as soon as the waters warm up (I live in Wichita, KS, and my training will be in Beaver Lake, Arkansas). Since I'll be starting my DM training shortly after I purchase my equipment, I want to be sure that I'll be able to instruct without having to buy different equipment. Since students (always?) use a regular jacket style BC, would it be better for me to hold off on getting my BP setup for now and just go with the jacket style in order to instruct?

Are there any instructors out there who teach with a BP while their students use a jacket type? If so, what kind of results are you getting? It seems that such a situation would cause a great deal of confusion to the students, especially during the exercises when the instructors dons his/her equipment (is that possible to do fairly easily with a BP?)

Also, since I have yet to take the Rescue Diver course, whoever my partner ends up being would have to know how to get me out of a BP setup which, as I understand, is not the easiest or most obvious thing to do if he/she is used to only a jacket style (chances are I will not know my partner until we're at the lake).

I'd really prefer to get my BP setup as my first equipment, but since I'm planning on getting into instructing as soon as possible, perhaps that wouldn't be the wisest choice right now. If that's the case, I have already researched, to the best of my ability, what I would get in a jacket style, though I honestly don't want one if I could get by without.

Any advice or tips or words of wisdom?

Thank you in advance to those of you who provide your input. I've received some great info on this site.

 

[norcaldiver]

First. If you're newly certified, you are going to have to take a few classes before you can start DM. It may be a little different for others, but if you go thru PADI, you're going to need Advanced Open Water, Rescue, EFR, preferably master scuba diver, this should get you your required number of dives to get into DM.

As far as BCs go, why not. The reason most students have a jacket is because they are usually the least expensive for teh shop to get so they are the rentals. If Zeagle Rangers were to be had for $75.00 as long as you were going to put them in the rental dept, all the students would be wearing Rangers.

Some Instr's have Jackets, some have Back inflates. I have a DUI Wings and the inflator and bladder is the same as any other. It might look a little different, but it works the same, and that's what counts. All you have to do is tell the student that there are several differnt makes and models of BCs, for all purposes of the OW class, the BC doesn't matter, what does is that they understand what they do and can operate it properly and do the skills.

With buddy assisted exits, or emergency bolts. That's what a buddy check is for-BWRAF-Releases are the 3rd step, make sure your buddy knows what they are and how they work. Getting farmiliar with each others gear, but also getting farmiliar with each other. Size up you new buddy. If you think your buddy may not be able to help you for whatever reason. Doesn't understand how to use shears or a knife, or put the reg on the tank backwards... whatever... call the dive. Fake a dead computer battery or something, but don't dive with someone you think can't handle a problem.

 

[Padipro]

I use a standard jacket type BC for the pool training sessions usually the same rental stuff the students are using, so they will get used to how it works by seeing me use it. I use my backplate harness and wings, as well as the long hose setup on my primary reg when we do the open water checkout dives. I tell all my students that they will come across many different gear types and configurations while diving and that it's important for them to become accustomed to diving with people that use different types of gear. I tell them that it's very important for them to ask questions about a divers gear and how it's used if they happen to be paired up with someone they have not dove with before. Then I tell them why I have chosen to use a backplate, harness and wings and why I have such a long hose on my primary reg. I figure it's the perfect time to tell them about the bennifits of this type of configuration, even for recreational use.

When I did my IDC we had a guy that was using an old Scuba Pro jacket style BC, the kind that had no quick releases on the sholder straps. He had the most difficult time during the rescue portion of the course when he had to remove his gear and when he played the victim people hated him because it was almost impossible to remove his BC. If I remember right he failed the IE for this very reason. Of course in real life this wouldn't be a problem because you could just cut the thing off but in training a BC without quick releases is a real PITA.

My suggestion, and it's just a suggestion, get a cheap jacket style BC for now and then get a nice BP, harness and wings after you're finished with the training. You can always use a another BC as a backup and if you don't want to use your good equipment in the pool, chlorine eats the stuff up fast, you can always use the old jacket BC in the pool and save the BP and wings from rotting out so quickly. And it will be one heck of a lot easyer to remove the BC during the rescue, DM and Instructor courses you're going to be taking.

By the way, most dive shops I've been around want you to use the same equipment they sell because it helps them sell equipment to students. It's the "If the Instructor uses it, it must be good" kind of thinking so chances are you'll have to use their rental gear for training anyway unless you just happpen to own the exact type of gear they sell.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Scott

 

[leadweight]

I am not an instructor, but I must agree with Padipro's well reasoned response. I have completed rescue and it would have been a real pain if anyone had a rig without quick release shoulder straps be it BP or Classic.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I don't and never will again dive in anything other than a bp and harness. I have no trouble demonstrating rescue skills or anything else. I am in the business of teaching diving. IMO back plates do the job the best. What use would I ever have for a jacket?

 

[Northeastwrecks]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I don't and never will again dive in anything other than a bp and harness. I have no trouble demonstrating rescue skills or anything else. I am in the business of teaching diving. IMO back plates do the job the best. What use would I ever have for a jacket?

I was assisting at a class earlier this morning. 4 of the 6 staff in this class teach in BP&W's.

I also assist at Rescue classes in a BP&W. Our students are taught to properly remove the rig without cutting it (they are also taught that cutting it is the fastest method). No problems so far.

We had a particularly advanced rescuse group last summer (mostly local firefighters, EMTs and police officers). I did that class in doubles with a BP&W and a drysuit. The only thing I left off the tech rig was the can light, and that was only because I was worried about the light head.

We've also done rescue classes in which divers who were not known to the students (they hadn't participated in the class) staged a scenario after we told the students that the class was over. One was in a BP&W. The other was underwater in a rebreather (no bubbles and watch out for the caustic cocktail if you remove the reg). The students had to do a full-fledged search and recovery based upon last known location and current flow.

BP&W's are the wave of the future. Students might as well learn to handle them.

 

[leadweight]

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...


BP&W's are the wave of the future. Students might as well learn to handle them.

I agree to disagree with the first proviso.

Backplates will never be dominant due to the learning curve necessary to enjoy one.

I agree with the concept of exposing rescue students to a scenario where the victim has a rig that lacks slide fasteners. However, this could be accomplished with a Scubapro Classic which is something Joe diver (who has not managed to surround himself with other BP guys) is much more likely to run into.

The degree of creative reasoning that BP owners use to promote their plight continues to impress me

 

[Northeastwrecks]

I'm not going to hijack this thread.

However:

(1) there is no more of a learning curve with a BP&W than there is with any other rig. Like anything else, proper instruction is the key. Indeed, I find them easier to use because there isn't a bunch of stuff interfering with your movement and shifting all over the place.

(2) Joe Diver is no more likely to run into a Classic than anything else. I've been in my LDS quite a bit this past week. I spent yesterday helping a diver convert his rig to a BP&W. Earlier in the week, I helped outfit six newbies who I helped teach earlier this year. They've been trying out gear for a few months.

Four bought Halcyon Pioneers. One bought an Aeris back inflate. One bought a SeaQuest Libra. So, lets see, 66% of the people buying new gear and 71% of the divers I helped this week are in Halcyon rigs. Not a single poodle jacket in the mix.

I've done a little more research on your prior posts. It appears that you experienced difficulty fitting a Halcyon. Is this the reason you are so critical of them? If so, and if you still own the thing, PM me and maybe I can offer some advice.

 

[leadweight]

I am not hijacking. My last post was on topic. It is noted that it you only 8 minutes to reply. My LDS happens to be a Halcyon dealer and I hope he makes lots of $$ any way he can. I tried to be nosey and find out what his sales mix was, but they consider that to be proprietary. There lots of dive shops here that do not sell BP's and in this town Zeagle (I don't have one) is the dominant brand.

To answer your question, the Halcyon rig was rented, so fortunately I could wash my hands of it.

From your other posts you seem to have managed to surround yourself with other backplate users. Around here most of them hang out at the low vis local lakes, where I rarely go.

I just got back from Coco View. There were 70 divers there and not one had a BP. In Oz in November, on 3 boats over 60 divers, no BP's sighted. Cozumel at labor day at the docks I saw over a hundred divers board different boats, and saw only one BP, the one I rented. At the caverns in Akumel the guides had BP's but none of the divers on cavern tours had them. The divemasters said they had never seen one before. At most I have seen 2 backplates on a trip where there were at least 50 divers at the location and both of these guys are cave divers (and one is a good friend).

To get back on track, I accept that you have seen what you say you see, but It is simply not representative of the diving world as a whole, and not just as I know it. It would only confuse students to teach in a BP, especially with DIR hoses, as this setup differs from the rental gear they are most likely to be using. To instruct in a full tec rig with doubles would not only confuse students but indimidate them, and there is no doubt that is how my wife and I would have felt when we started diving.

When I did my OW I asked my instructor what kind of equipment I should purchase. He replied that it was improper for him to make any recommendation. By wearing equipment that is significantly different from gear used by the students the instructor is making a statement about what he recommends. It only underscores the zealous overpromotion of BP's and DIR by their adherents.

 

[djhall]

leadweight once bubbled...
It would only confuse students to teach in a BP, especially with DIR hoses, as this setup differs from the rental gear they are most likely to be using. To instruct in a full tec rig with doubles would not only confuse students but indimidate them, and there is no doubt that is how my wife and I would have felt when we started diving.

That may indeed have been your reaction, but I don't see why it needs to be confusing at the open water stage if the instructor takes a few minutes to explain the differences and similarites between his rig and the ones the students are using (and, ideally, the advantages and disadvantages of both styles). If, after all their pool work is done, the students do not understand the essential functions of the equipment (tank mount, bladder for lift, harness to diver, etc) well enough to see how the BP/Wings rig provides the same functions in a different configuration, then perhaps they are not ready for the OW phase of their training.

leadweight once bubbled...
When I did my OW I asked my instructor what kind of equipment I should purchase. He replied that it was improper for him to make any recommendation. By wearing equipment that is significantly different from gear used by the students the instructor is making a statement about what he recommends. It only underscores the zealous overpromotion of BP's and DIR by their adherents.

Uh huh. And purchasing a certain style of equipment for rental and instructional use, as well as having the instructor wear the same gear configuration while teaching the course, and, no doubt, selling that same gear in their store does not make a statement about what they recommend? Give me a break. Would it not be just as accurate to say that certifying OW students who have never used or EVEN SEEN a BP/Wings rig only underscores the zealous overpromotion of jacket BCs by their adherents?