Is a BW/Wings setup appropriate for instructors?

[IanH]

Leadweight

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that you said BP's were unsafe. Of course, you did not say anything of the sort.

You did say that there is a big learning curve associated with BP's and its this that has concerned me.

If you are saying that the learning curve is in respect of comfort and convenience then I am relaxed. If it is a safety issue then I am concerned.

Is the surface issue one of tipping forward ? If so, as I understand it, some people don't find this a problem those that do add non-ditchable trim weights to the tank straps.

I suppose my comments were a little of thread. I’m not trying to start a war I just want to get to the bottom of an important issue. Your views are as relevant as anyone else’s in this regard.

Ian

 

[leadweight]

The learning curve is with respect to comfort and convenience.

The surface issue is tipping forward and it may be dealt with as you say IanH. This is the situation with all back inflation BC's, not just BP's.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

IanH once bubbled...
Leadweight

If you are saying that the learning curve is in respect of comfort and convenience then I am relaxed. If it is a safety issue then I am concerned.

Is the surface issue one of tipping forward ? If so, as I understand it, some people don't find this a problem those that do add non-ditchable trim weights to the tank straps.

Ian

IanH

I use a Halcyon exclusively.

IMHO, there are no safety issues that are not also present in a BC (like the general risks associated with diving).

Indeed, there are far fewer things that can go wrong. For example, there are no Quick Disconnects or plastic buckles to fail. There are fewer entanglements. There is no integrated weight system to break. There are fewer dumps to leak, get stuck or otherwise fail.

They are a little more cumbersome to adjust. I strongly recommend that you have someone who knows how to adjust it help. A properly fitted BP is tighter than the typical BC; however, the tank doesn't move around and the BP won't shift if you change position.

I firmly believe that you will enjoy it. I sure do.

BP are like any other rear inflate system in that they can tend to put you face down if you don't know how to handle it. Once you get the rig trimmed out, all you need to do is raise your knees and you will stay upright. I don't even bother with trim weights.

Leadweight and I respectfully disagree as to the benefits of a BP. While I do respect his opinion, I believe that you will enjoy the Halcyon.

If you do have problems getting fitted, PM me. I don't know what I can do from here, but I'll do my best.

 

[raybo]

Leadweight once bubbled...

I certified at a resort in the Caribbean where they had no expectation of selling me gear.

I would argue that the amount of training and general familiarity with the fundamental concepts of diving are much more at question in many of the debates proffered on the boards than what has become a Bp/wing v. Traditional BC arguememt.

Out of curiosity of the acronym DIR, I started doing some investigation. What I encountered I found intriguing. As a result, I ordered the DIR-F manual and the Tech1 manual.

PADIPRO once bubbled...

Turns out he was certified by GUE and when the LDS staff saw his C card they thought I was tech enough to buddy me up with him.

Turns out that the tech 1 manual was about the same level technically of the manual I was trained under in 1971. I find it ever more discouraging to see comments like the one of PadiPro.

That course was one 5 hr class a week for 10 weeks,with written tests weekly, and skill tests weekly in the pool. I didn't dive for years after that initial training, but it was so well done, that it was really very much like riding a bike. That's what's missing form todays programs. I really feel sorry for the people who doen't know what they're missing

I signed up to go through the PADI Master Diver level to try to get a "refresher" in what I was originally taught. No such luck. Although I will be learning some new skills, the stuff I wanted isn't available. Looks like GUE Tech1 may meet that.

I would conted that if you have been properly trained, it won't really matter what "rig" you end up with, you will be a competent enough diver to adapt to the equipment.

I dive a back inflate, and if/when it wears out,I will probably be looking at the BP/wing

 

[Padipro]

raybo once bubbled " I find it ever more discouraging to see comments like the one of PadiPro."

What was it I said??? I wasn't trying to put anyone down, as a matter of fact I had exactly the opposite intent. Did you notice how I said "I was tech enough to buddy me up with him" You wouldn't know this unless you were there but this guy was serious tech. SS BP, doubles, long hose, skooter, ect, ect, ect. All on a recreational dive trip. While I have never taken a DIR based class I have read quite alot about the subject as well as talked to many people about it and there are deffinalely some ideas that are good and cross over well to the recreational side of diving, hence the reason I use a BP&W and have a 7 foot hose on my primary. I thoroughly enjoyed diving with this guy as he was the only one that I have met in the 5 years I've lived here in South Florida that has used this type of gear configuration. It was nice for once not to be the only one on the entire boat configured this way and to know that my dive buddy was at least as qualified, if not more so, then I.

Scott

 

[leadweight]

Raybo,

It took 5 days. We did 6 checkout dives and got some extra classrom time. This was NAUI. Some places are doing PADI in 3.5 days. This is not to knock PADI. There are no bad agencies, but there are some bad instructors (and lots of good ones). It is my belief that divers who do their first OW dives under good conditions are more likely to stick with diving. Starting out in a freezing cold lake with 2 ft of vis can be very scary and discouraging for a newbie. I actually saw a couple of hammerheads the first day at San Salvador Island in the Bahamas.

It took me a lot of diving to really get things to the "bicycle" stage. Joining a dive club helped as it gave me a source of experienced divers to get tips from. New divers benefit from some kind of a support group of experienced divers, or they can take AOW and a bunch of specialty courses.

Even though I am not a BP guy, I believe that divers who are helping other divers by sharing their experience in hands on sessions are doing the sport a service be it BP's or otherwise.

 

[raybo]

One of the points that I made on another thread is that it's imperitive that the knowledge aquired by more experienced divers be shared with less so. I've just gotten to be so frustrated with the level of competence of of the divers I've seen.

Having gone through PADI O/W, advanced, nitrox, and a few other PADI specialties to getthe Master level, I am just more than a little disappointed (and this isn't directed at any particular agency or individual) that there is such a widespread lack of understanding of the every pertinent physiological aspects of this sport.

I would concur with what I perceive to be the conensus that on the last +/-75 dives on vacation in the Carribean I have yet to see a BP/wing rig. But the level of competence of the most of those people was sorely lacking. It's not an equipment issue~ it's general lack of training. And I'm not necessarily talking about formal "certified" training.

I would argue that it's as much the fault of the dive operations and the more experienced divers not taking the initiative to "help" those less experienced divers in achieving a higher level of competency. When you see someone doing something that isn't safe or even just not efficient, maybe we ought to just cordially express to that person our thoughts on improvement in a polite & courteous way.

The point of my post was to the general degradation of training. As was pointed out in another thread, it really doens' matter if you're diving a BP/wing, or traditional BC or if you're using a couple of garbage bags and rocks.

Humans are not built to breathe underwater, and if you're going to undertake this sport, you should have been introduced~conceptually~to what it takes to sustain human life underwater. Doesn't matter what kind of rig you're using. Nobody anywhere will ever, under any circumstances, be able to convince me but what that should be the underlying goal of any and all scuba training.

The instructor that I'm working under right now made comment that they don't like to use back inflate BCs because new students don't like to have their face forced down. I can see some validity in that argument, but if you don't want your face in the water~maybe you shouldn't be diving!

Kind of hard core, I know. But I don't really want to be in the water with someone who isn't complletely comfortable with being there.

Oh, yeah. on topic. I think you should dive in whatever rig you want, LDS or instructor preference be damned. If a shop is so narrow minded or afraid of its new students being exposed to other ideas, its probaby time to find another shop.

From the FWIW (for what it's worth) Deptartment.

 

[leadweight]

Perhaps we are far afield, but I see my share of divers who swim at a 45 degree angle, bicycle kick, bang into the reef, never seem to make it back to the boat without a special pick-up, stir up the bottom and other assorted behavior. There are also the rude ones who scoot in front of me to take pictures or shine lights in my face at night.

I don't seem to remember too much discussion of this stuff when I did OW. The actual impact of this poor behavior varies from inefficient and harmless at one extreme, to annoying, then harmful and dangerous at the other extreme. If it is just inefficient and harmless, I don't care. The other stuff needs to be corrected, although it is damn hard to do anything about it.

 

[ScubaDan]

leadweight once bubbled...
IanH

To get back to the subject of teaching diving, I probably would have not wanted to learn how to dive in a back inflation BC of any kind. It would just have introduced another variable that made things harder.

The whole family learned to dive with back inflate BC and we like them allot more then jacket style BC's. I wish that I would have been introduced to BP/ wing at that time so I would have had more choices. I’m now looking at buying bp/wing for the whole family now.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I'm not "DIR" and I'm not GUE trained but I use a BP because that's what works best for me. I have more than one kind of BC in rental and discuss as many different types of equipment in class as I can. I also explain the mechanics of balnce and trim in detail. I try to give each student a chance to try a BP. I only have so many so sometimes not all get to try one. However, since We get them all horizontal the ones who get to dive the bp generally prefer it. In fact I can't think of a student who has dived a bp and a bc and prefered the bc. The fact that this equipment isn't typical in the Caribbean isn't my fault. You see plenty of poor trim and poor technique in general. You see lots of dangling gauges and alternates and all manor of junk clipped to divers. Regardless of what is commonly seem I won't teach that way. I tell student exactly what they will see in the Caribbean and I tell them why I do things as I do and teach the way I teach.

I have not found a longer learning curve with a bp. In fact I have found just the oposit. I have found that divers get better faster.