Instructors losing certification for non-teaching reasons

[MikeFerrara]

This whole dive was a mess from the start. Of course, most fatal dives are. There was the botched gas plan, the botched air share and the communication problems.

I'm not crazy about the plan to empty the stage before switching to back gas either. If you switch at thirds the stage has enough gas to get you out from that point. If you switch at 1/2+2 you don't have any reserve but you can still breath it on the way out. So...they run it dry and then switch and maybe find that they've lost backgas and then what? The guy's dragging three emty tanks and by the sound of it maybe even too buoyant to stay down while sharing gas.

Unless there was a leak, I don't know how he used that much gas. I've been to about 1350 in this hypothetical cave with one stage and no scooter and the dive was always turned on time rather than gas. Also there's some flow so the trip out is a little quicker and easier.

 

[Spectre]

Yea... that's the thing that really has me curious. How do you blow through that much gas in that short of a time. We're talking a stage and a set of doubles, less 500 psi, in 2200' while scootering. Granted I don't know crap about this stuff, but it doesn't take a rocket science to sit down and realize that even if they ran 100 ft/min @ 150 with double 72's and a 72 stage, you're talking about a SAC rate pushing 1.5 cuft/min... on a scooter?

 

[TCDiver1]

Granted I don't know crap about this stuff, but it doesn't take a rocket science to sit down and realize that even if they ran 100 ft/min @ 150 with double 72's and a 72 stage, you're talking about a SAC rate pushing 1.5 cuft/min... on a scooter?

Its amazing what task loading and the stress it can cause, will do to a SAC rate. I've seen scooters & stages cause a significant increase in SAC rate in situations the diver is not comfortable with.

A doubling or tripling of normal SAC is not unusual FME if the diver gets stressed enough.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I don't think any one's ever going to tell us what happened but if there wasn't a leak the only think I can think of is task loading and working hard with the scooter.

I know a scooter is supposed to cut down on the work but that's only if you're good. In OW it's easy but the cave goes up, down, left and right and if you're fighting to steer it because you're no good with a scooter you can get working pretty hard.

There's some fairly low spots in there and it's not where I'd go for one my first few scooter cave dives.

 

[Spectre]

Ooops. I forgot to say the 72s was just a 'choosing the smallest possible'. I see your point about the added task load increasing the rate. However I still feel that that is just _way_ too much gas to go through by normal means.

 

[Rick Murchison]

So who was responsible for not turning the dive at the right time?

In the narrow "who's responsible for turning the dive on the gas plan?" the individual diver is responsible - however - if I may be so bold as to use myself as an example... the first few times you dive with me you'll find that I'm positively nosey about your gas consumption, and overly forthcoming to you about mine. I figure I (and every other team member) should have a pretty good idea of how much gas each team member has at all times, and whose gas is most likely to turn the dive. I find it hard to justify proceeding well beyond the plan no matter which team member missed their own gas turn point.
As for pressing on the additional 200', there may be times when this would be justified, like finding that everyone was well above their expected gas reserves at the planned turn point, everyone comfy and wanting to press on a bit... but that is obviously not the case in this scenario. Every one of the team, individually and collectively, is at fault here.
Rick

 

[Mako Mark]

is it true?

is it fair?

is it benificial to all concerned?

will it build good will?

These are the questions the Quality Management department (of a hypothetical agency beginning with P) uses to determine whether to revoke, suspend or terminate an individuals membership.

Bad role model, or unsafe behaviour could be seen to violate the best interests of all concerned, so therfore could justify such action. As would such things such as sexual harrassment, or criminal activity.

The agency reserves the right to not have someone as a member if they feel it is not in their best interests.

 

[Brian Gilpin]

The problem with the disciplinary action is that it was too late. I wonder if the dive agencies do random monitoring of standards. Never heard of it if they do. Standards are violated every day but it doesn't matter if no one gets hurt.
Heck I know of people that have done cave diving as part of their Discover Scuba experience in Yucatan.

 

[Michael Schlink]

The question is "Once an instructor,always an instructor" or not. I often dive with previous students/new divers so even if I'm not involved teaching I think I have to represent myself as an instructor (role model) I don't announce myself or wear a t-shirt. I won't go into it here but those that know me can tell a story from a long time ago about an instructor who wasn't teaching but got in trouble so to speak just because he was an instructor. I guess instructor's are going to be held to a higher standard. I don't know if agree, but as the saying goes "it is what it is"-M

 

[Mako Mark]

I wonder if the dive agencies do random monitoring of standards.

Yes they do, they send student questionares to about one in three students, or more if there is suspicion of standards violations. With email, this is getting quicker and easier too,

Heck I know of people that have done cave diving as part of their Discover Scuba experience in Yucatan.

I was diving Dos Ojos Cavern with a group of senior PADI execs when an AI swam past teaching a resort course, so they do know. Also this is changing rapidly and dramatically for the better over the last couple of years as self regulation, and now governmental regulation of the dive industry in Mexico increases.