Instructors, is this common practice???

[Jim Lapenta]

The whole PADI medical release (and probably other agencies as well) has a number of issues. A wriggling can of worms that deserves it's own thread. In this specific case, points to think about:

1. This is a minor. A parent needed to sign the form, and is ultimately responsible for the accuracy on it. The PADI form clearly states any YES answers REQUIRE a medical release. I don't think the instructor had any leeway.


2. When filling out these forms you need to be VERY careful in what you put down. If the bicycle accident resulted in a concussion but not a loss of consciousness (You can have a concussion without losing consciousness) then the parents could legitimately answer NO to that question. An example of this is: one of my sons had a hernia repair at age 2, I answered NO to the question of "hernia". He no longer has one, and the fact he had surgery 15 years ago has no current bearing on his fitness now to dive or do any other activity.



3. No where on the PADI form could I find a time frame the medical release is valid for. Since the treating physician released the student from all further care related to the head injury this appears to meet PADI's requirements. So even needing the release then the one from the time of injury should have been sufficient. Anyone from PADI HQ want to weigh in?

1.All RSTC forms require it, so yes that's correct.

2.And if I find out there was a concussion and the parents answered no regardless of whether or not consciouness was lost because they want the kid to get certed then class is over. No refund. A concussion is being treated much more seriously now than it was when those forms were made up.

3. You need to stop relating this only to PADI. It is every agency that has these requirements. The release the treating physician signed was not the release for scuba that the agencies require. The doctor could not possibly know that 3 years from now the kid would try scuba. Accepting that release would be stupid. I want a current release for any training if it is called for. Any strenuous activity requires this. Kids in school sports must get a physical every year. Yes you do need to be careful when filling out the med statement. Because I don't know about any other instructor but if I find out you lied during training it's a done deal. And what is the big deal about taking your kid for a good physical before putting them into a sport that has the risks that diving does? Seems like no brainer to me.

And frankly I'm still amazed at a parent that would just drop their kid off for training the first night. Not bother to go in and meet the instructor, see the class layout, make sure everything is good to go, and that they do have everything that they need. But I'm also amazed a shop would allow a parent to leave their kid and not require them to stay for the class.

 

[ROMO DIVER]

Jim,

I would like to know on what basis you would arbitrarily decide to confiscate someones money for answering a question truthfully. The medical statement says "Head injury with loss of consciousness in the past five years?" If they say no due to the fact that the person never lost consciousness and you do not give a refund you are a thief in my book.

 

[Wookie]

Jim,

I would like to know on what basis you would arbitrarily decide to confiscate someones money for answering a question truthfully. The medical statement says "Head injury with loss of consciousness in the past five years?" If they say no due to the fact that the person never lost consciousness and you do not give a refund you are a thief in my book.

I'm going to put words in Jim's mouth here. He can correct me if I am wrong. The class was bought and paid for. The instructor was on time, prepared, and ready to conduct the class. The instructors part of the contract was upheld. The student was unprepared, ineligible for in-water instruction, and not ready for class. The student did not uphold their end of the contract. When the student becomes prepared, Jim will conduct the class. When the student returns with a proper RSTC form filled out by a physician, the student may then join the class. The fact that the student lives in another state far away from where the class is being held is of no bearing on the issue, The instructor is ready to complete the contract, and indeed, as has been said earlier, may have turned another student away because of the student instructor ratios.

Jim does not intend to steal anyone's money, he intends to uphold his end of the bargain. As soon as the student comes back to where the class is being held. That is a part of the problem with trying to get certified in 3 days., Any little thing (weather, broken boat, sick student) can cause the student to not complete the class. The 6 P's are definitely in effect here, that's why the referral system was instituted. That way the statement on the medical release would have been caught at home in plenty of time to get it fixed, classroom and pool completed, and there would not have been bitter feelings on either side.

Jim did not say he would confiscate anything. He said no refunds. That's pretty common in the Scuba industry when the trip cancels due to no fault of the boat, or the student doesn't complete the course due to no fault of the instructor. I happen to refund when weather makes a trip untenable to run, but most liveaboards don't. You might get a voucher for another trip, but you pays your money and you takes your chances.

 

[belairbrian]

1. This is a minor. A parent needed to sign the form, and is ultimately responsible for the accuracy on it. The PADI form clearly states any YES answers REQUIRE a medical release. I don't think the instructor had any leeway.

Agree on this one. The form MUST be signed by the parent if the student is a minor. Can't fathom how a parent would not read over forms before turining them in

3. No where on the PADI form could I find a time frame the medical release is valid for. Since the treating physician released the student from all further care related to the head injury this appears to meet PADI's requirements. So even needing the release then the one from the time of injury should have been sufficient. Anyone from PADI HQ want to weigh in?

The form specifically states that if you mark YES the instructor will give you information to give the doctor that should be considered in determining if the individual should participate. The previous release was for normal activities. As previously stated SCUBA is not a normal activiy. Further the OP gives no indication as to whether the physician knows anything about diving. Thus a previous opinion would not be considered adequate.


As to the OPs comment on checking forms. That's not going to happen instantly. 2 hours to review all the students paperwork then call the parents during a break seems fairly reasonable.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

In my learning agreement it is clearly stated that all forms must be answered truthfully and all properly signed and filled out. Along with observing all rules of the agency and myself. They also agree to follow all safety rules and procedures. Failure to do that will result in the class being ended, no certification being issued, and no refund given.

Students read and sign this form in my presence before they even hand me any money. All of it is clearly explained. When I schedule a class it means I cannot schedule any others for that time. As a result if the student disregards the agreement they forfeit the money paid.

I began doing this after reading of students disregarding safety procedures, not showing up for class except when they felt like it, lying on medical forms, and canceling at the last minute for no reason. If I cancel a class for any reason they get refunded in full. If they have an emergency there is not penalty and I bend over backwards to accomodate them. They know up front that I don't play games and medical issues are a very serious matter. If you come to me for training and lie on the form, and at the end of class I see you pop a nitroglycerin tablet, take an insulsin injection, or find out that you had a concussion - even in casual conversation and did not disclose it you violated the agreement and the matter is closed.

And Frank is correct. If you want to keep going I need FULL DISCLOSURE of the issues and before we go any further the release will need to be obtained.

The only time I will absolutely refuse to readmit someone is if they violate the agreement by disregarding safety procedures. If that happens they are done. No appeals with me on that.

 

[ROMO DIVER]

Wookie,

I understand what you are saying and agree with you. However, it is not applicable to Jim's comment. His #2 above stated that if a parent stated "no" to the concussion question then it ALONE was grounds for a no-refund dismissal. THAT is what I have a problem with. In that case the class cancellation is ENTIRELY the fault of the instructor. The student and parent fulfilled the letter of the law on the medical. Jim is playing medical provider and stating that the parents should have known that HE does not agree with the RSTC stance on concussions and answered the question in a non statement of fact manner. That is taking someones money without reason or consent and equals theft.

 

[ROMO DIVER]

Jim,

How would that be a lie on the form?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Because I do not allow people to fill out the form outside of my presence. I have looked at it and based on CURRENT medical information ask questions related to each article. They are told that any concussion needs to be revealed. There are too many instances of damage occurring to kids today where they do not lose consciousness. And a lie is a lie. It's not just about something on a form. Lying about something like that indicates to me that person has a problem with judgement and their approach to safety. I am not a PADI instructor. My agency allows me to set standards for certification above theirs. I am also very averse to risk. Especially when the parent who lies is also the likely the first one to sue if something happens.

Those forms are old and out of date with current medical and even DAN research. I'm not. If someone wants to guarantee they get certified with me they need to meet all the requirements. If they have a question about one of the items they are told to ask me. It's not what they think or even what the doctor thinks. It's about what is the acceptable level of risk I am willing to take. I can train or refuse to train anyone.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

And again it's why I have a "Learning Agreement" between myself and the student and do not send paperwork to people to fill out on their own.

 

[boulderjohn]

Some people may not realize that being cleared for normal activities is often different from being cleared for scuba. Scuba involves factors that are different from normal activities. The danger of passing out or fainting underwater is greater than the danger of passing out during a soccer game. Pregnant women do all kinds of things--a near term woman just completed a marathon--but they should not dive because of the potential harm to the fetus who is sharing the mother's blood and all that extra nitrogen (etc.) during a dive.

I know someone who scheduled a surgery on the surgeon's assurance that he should be healed enough for all activities in time for his planned dive trip. Then the surgeon remembered that "all activities" did not include scuba, for there was a legitimate risk specific to scuba that meant he had to be fully healed before he could dive.