Instructors, is this common practice???

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About the broken arm...

I was not there and do not know the details, but the issue of past broken bones is often misunderstood on the RSTC form.

The wording of the item is as follows:

Back, arm or leg problems following surgery, injury or fracture


It does not ask if you have ever had surgery, an injury, or a fracture. It asks if you have had "Back, arm or leg problems" following such an event. If you broke an arm and healed nicely, then the correct response to that is "NO."
 
The PADI Medical Statement says:



It seems to me that if one reads the form and answers "yes" to any of the questions, it should be very clear that a doctor's consultation will be required before one will be allowed to dive. If there was a question as to whether the old release was adequate, asking the instructor would have clarified that the physician evaluation must be within one year.

Your son arrived for the class with the form, so the instructor obviously hadn't ever seen it before. I'm not really sure where it becomes incompetence on the part of the instructor not to have warned you that you needed a physical for your son, when he didn't know there was an issue and you didn't read the form, even though you must have signed it, as that is required.

Correct Lynne. I've seen it 3 times in the past 3 years. My daughter, her dive buddy and a stranger signing up for a class at the LDS a couple weeks ago. Check yes to any, a physician's release is required. (the words of the shop manager)
 
Jim,

The standard RSTC medical form (that I downloaded from PADI) asks "Head injury with loss of consciousness in the past five years?". Also skimming the form I can't find any reference to how long the form is valid for. So for you to insist that any "concussion" (which by medical definition does not require a loss of consciousness) be listed or that the form is only good for a specific time period is ADDING requirements.

You as the instructor can ADD any prerequisites or requirements you want, but please don't call it fraud if someone fills the form out exactly as the question is asked.

Also, nowhere on the form does it required a diving specialist to sign the form. Any licensed healthcare provider (as defined by the local laws) is sufficient. Again you may choose to not accept the form, but then YOU are cancelling, nor is it fraud.

The whole concept of voluntary disclosure, with only some people needing a medical release, often from a provider who doesn't even know what scuba is - much less what the physiological stresses are - is full of holes. But that should be on another thread.

Please understand, I am not saying you are wrong, just that you can't be more conservative and call it fraud. Go back to my original reply to this thread when I answered "NO" to "hernia?" on my son's form. While he had one, he no longer does, nor has he ever had any of the surgeries specifically listed.
 
Wow, it seems that I might have ruffled a few feathers with this thread.

First, let me explain a few things that I didn't make clear. Yes, we signed the paperwork for him to be in class. Did I read it, no, I didn't. My wife and I are both divers, and are aware of all of the risks associated with diving. We had already discussed the risks with my son, and were willing to accept it so we simply signed on the spots where it said guardian. If that makes me a bad parent in your eyes, so be it. My son is 16 years old, and we thought he was fully capable of filling out the rest of the form. Honestly, we haven't thought of the head injury since that summer, because he was given no limitations by his doctor, and has suffered no ill effects. To clarify, he did NOT lose consciousness, although he checked the line that indicated that he had. He misunderstood, and thought it was an either/or type of thing. I do realize that it doesn't matter at that point whether he did or did not lose consciousness, since he marked that he had. At this point I wouldn't take someone's word for it either since it would appear that they were back tracking. That is why I'm not arguing about whether he needed a physical or medical release.

Also, no, we did not have the required PADI/RSTC form filled out, just a general release form, signed by the doctor, stating that he could participate in all normal activities. When we spoke to the instructor the first time regarding the release form, he never mentioned a specific form, only that he needed "something" from the doctor that says he can participate in class.. When we went back to the dive shop to confirm that he received the fax from the Hospital, he said "this is exactly what I needed, he can stay in class". If he had explained the first time that there was a specific form that needed to be filled out, I would have been more understanding than when he called me the second time telling me that the faxed release form was not going to work.

I'm also not quite sure why some folks are up in arms about us dropping him off for class. We dropped him off for the classroom portion of class. Again, my wife and I are both divers, so, although it might have been a good review, we didn't find it necessary to babysit him through this portion of class. We already had plans to dive with the rest of the class during their check-outs. We did go inside and meet the instructor. The class was scheduled to be 11 people. Not everyone was there yet, we were early. The classroom was a dedicated room with lots of props, posters and books.

I have a couple of problems with this whole mess. First is that nowhere on the release paperwork does it state that a physical has to be within the year. I think someone else has already pointed this out in an earlier post. I do not agree with folks who arbitrarily pick and chose which regulations to follow, and which ones to be more strict on. If you're going to have more stringent guidelines than the certifying agency, why represent that agency at all? This particular instructor stated he needed a release less than a year old. This is above and beyond what PADI requires. If you're smarter than the folks who run the agency, for goodness sake, do all of us a favor, and try to get on their advisory board so that you can fill some of the gaps!

My second problem is that a physical is not required for anyone, except those who answer "yes" on any of those questions. I don't understand why its not required that EVERYONE who participates in a class has a physical. If I walk in off the street and want to take a class, and I don't say yes to any of those questions, then it is ASSUMED that I am in good enough condition to participate. This is with no doctors counsel, or diagnosis. When my son comes in, with a doctors note saying he can participate in normal activities, this isn't good enough. If SCUBA is not a "normal activity" then EVERYONE should be required to have a physical. Someone mentioned the litigious nature of our society now, and I totally agree, which is why I don't understand why everyone isn't required to have a physical. If I join a football league, its not a normal activity and they will REQUIRE a physical of all of their players.

I guess the remainder of my problems lie in how this particular operation is run. 2 hours after class starts we are contacted about his physical. I get a release faxed to the shop and I'm told that it is acceptable. Another hour after that, I'm called back and told the release will not work, and its not until I arrive to pick my son up that they tell me there's a particular form that needs to be filled out. If its so important, I don't understand why these yes/no questions aren't the first thing checked before class even starts! I'm a business owner myself, and I know that if I told my customers one thing, then another, then another, that I wouldn't be in business very long!

Since all of this happened, I've been wondering why in the world the industry doesn't require physicals on everyone prior to class. I guess its because if physicals were required, then attendance numbers would go down. Regardless of how your run your own class, how many OW classes are filled with folks on vacation who decide to learn to SCUBA on a whim. They are not going to take the time to get a physical while on vacation. If the certifying agencies were truly worried about diver health then their forms would be up to date (Thanks Jim for pointing out that they are out of date) and a physical would be required for all.
 
As to the “age” of the Medical Statement, lets start using our senses with this.

As has been correctly stated, in the PADI world at least, a signed Medical Statement for a continuing education class must be no older than one year to be valid. That being said, a new Medical Statement must be provided if one’s medical history changes during that period.

In the case of the brand new OW student, a signed Medical Statement must be provided prior to the OW student entering confined water.

The RSTC Medical Statement asks the student to indicate when their last physical examination was.

The RSTC Medical Statement asks the physician to answer one of two simple questions: I find no medical conditions that I consider incompatible with diving, or I am unable to recommend this individual for diving. The physician is then to sign and date the Statement. There is no other acceptable note, form, or doctor’s letter. The doctor’s response must be as shown, no qualifiers.

There is no requirement or expectation that the date of the last physical examination and the doctor’s “sign-off” date are the same date.

Folks are correct that there is no time period stated within which a physical examination is required. However, how reasonable is it to consider that a student has filled out the Medical Statement and had a physician sign it years in advance of them taking a class?

I have never had a case where an OW student came with a Medical Statement filled out and dated more than a month or two prior to the class date. I have had students come to a continuing education class with a copy of their “old” Medical Statement, more than a year old, and I have had to turn them away. We are very careful to tell prospective students of the requirements of a Medical Statement, yet it still happens.
 
...in the PADI world at least, a signed Medical Statement for a continuing education class must be no older than one year to be valid. That being said, a new Medical Statement must be provided if one’s medical history changes during that period.

I don't disagree with the above, and as a medical provider I probably wouldn't sign a release for a person I haven't seen in over a year anyway, BUT is the above just "common knowledge" or is it in writing somewhere. I'd like to be able to point to the written policy.
 
page 29, PADI 2011 Instructor Manual:

For Adventure Diver, Advanced Open Water Diver, Rescue Diver, Master Scuba Diver and Specialty Diver courses, use the Continuing Education Administrative Document, which includes all three forms listed above, and applies to multiple continuing education courses taken within 12 months.
 
I don't disagree with the above, and as a medical provider I probably wouldn't sign a release for a person I haven't seen in over a year anyway, BUT is the above just "common knowledge" or is it in writing somewhere. I'd like to be able to point to the written policy.

For continuing education courses the student is to use the Continuing Education Administrative Document (CEAD). Instructor Manual - General Standards and Procedures - pg. 29. The Continuing Education Administrative Document includes the Medical Statement. As per page 29, the CAED "applies to multiple continuing education courses taken within 12 months".

Once 12 months is up, the CAED "expires". If any further courses are taken, the student must complete a new CAED.

It follows that if there are "yes" answers on the Medical Statement, the student will have to provide a physician's sign-off.

The Medical Statement portion of the CAED further states "I affirm it is my responsibility to inform my instructor of any and all changes to my medical history at any time during my participation in scuba programs". Again, it follows that if a change in medical history would yield a "yes" answer to any of the questions, the student will have to provide a physician's sign-off prior to participation in a continuing education class.

I have never yet had a student ask me to "prove it" (my quotations) when I have to turn them down on the basis of paperwork, medical or otherwise. If they did, I would not feel compelled to "prove it" to them.
 
Crap, I spent so long composing my response, Peter beat me to it!
 
I'm pursuing this on really understanding what is required - not because I personally disagree.

Re: Peter Guy and Hawkwood's responses. I think it is pretty clear that the CEAD documents need to be completed for any con-ed not taken within the same 12 month period. This includes the screening medical questions. Any YES answers then require a medical release, but no one has yet been able to verify that this release has to be within a year. Additionally, if any NEW medical issue comes up then a new medical release is needed - even if it has been less than a year since the last release.

The real question is: Does the diver need a NEW release every year (assuming they are taking a formal class) for an OLD, STABLE, UNCHANGED and PREVIOUSLY CLEARED condition. This is a question I have posed directly to PADI Americas. When I get a response I will post it in this thread.

I'm interested in this subject for a number of reasons.

1. I'm a DM with DSD Leader authorization working with BSA youth. The cost of repeated physical exams is often a problem. I'd like to see them get ONE scuba focused exam rather than a yearly "your breathing and talking" sports exam from someone who doesn't even know what scuba is.

2. I'm a Physician Assistant giving activity releases, and want to do the best professional job I can, but I do get asked why the forms are needed repeatedly without any medical changes. It's a no-brainer answer if everyone has to have the exam, but I'm at a loss if only self-reporters need the exam.

Of course this question would never come up if everyone had to have a medical release yearly - might reduce some of the cardiac deaths - but we all know this won't happen anytime soon. ($$$).
 
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