Instructor to instructor communication

[devilfish]

Walter once bubbled...

Big problem! Many folks see this as agency bashing.

Actually there is little differance between agencies. Agencies do not set standards HOW skills need to be done. Agency standards call for WHAT should be done. Most agencies standards differ very little. For example, clearing a mask. An agency does not set a standard how it should be done, they may have only suggestions for teaching method, the only standard is that the student must be able to clear a mask. So there should not be an issue as long as it does not get too off track and we keep what is a standard and what is not.

 

[Walter]

devilfish,

"Actually there is little differance between agencies."

Do you actually believe this? If you do, you haven't looked at different agencies closely. There are major differences. There are differences in which skills/topics are required. There are differences in how they must (may with some) be presented.

As an example, I introduce SCUBA to my students at the beginning of the 3rd pool session. There's at least one agency in which this would violate standards. With my agency, I have the flexibilty to do it this way because I believe it is better. This is an example of how rigid vs how flexible presentation can be from one agency to another.

Skin diving skills are required and an important part of the standards of some agencies while they are almost totally eliminated from the standards of others.

Regardless of which you prefer, there are big differences from one agency to another.

 

[devilfish]

Walter once bubbled...
devilfish,

"Actually there is little differance between agencies."

Do you actually believe this? If you do, you haven't looked at different agencies closely. There are major differences. There are differences in which skills/topics are required. There are differences in how they must (may with some) be presented.

As an example, I introduce SCUBA to my students at the beginning of the 3rd pool session. There's at least one agency in which this would violate standards. With my agency, I have the flexibilty to do it this way because I believe it is better. This is an example of how rigid vs how flexible presentation can be from one agency to another.

Skin diving skills are required and an important part of the standards of some agencies while they are almost totally eliminated from the standards of others.

Regardless of which you prefer, there are big differences from one agency to another.

I don't disagree that some agencies specify WHEN some skills should be done, sometimes I agree with the sequence and often I do not, in the end they all get the same skills. As for skin diving, I agree that some agencies make it mendatory others dropped it, but with which agency it is forbidden and against the standard? You can teach skin diving while conducting a course for any agency. Often Instructors confuse standards with minimus.

 

[mddolson]

Walter bubbled:
"However statment of fact and example or comparision of standards and techniques should be open for duscussion."

Big problem! Many folks see this as agency bashing."

I know , you're right, Walter. (There's enough bashing going on already) My hope was, that as professionals we could put our differences aside, openly discuss, and share information, techiques etc without beating up or criticising on each other's agencies.

MikeD
:blfish:

 

[MHK]

mddolson once bubbled...
Walter bubbled:
"However statment of fact and example or comparision of standards and techniques should be open for duscussion."

Big problem! Many folks see this as agency bashing."

I know , you're right, Walter. (There's enough bashing going on already) My hope was, that as professionals we could put our differences aside, openly discuss, and share information, techiques etc without beating up or criticising on each other's agencies.

MikeD
:blfish:

I try often to engage in these type of dicussion but they are so difficult to effectively communicate using this medium.. The problem as I see it is that much of what needs to be discussed is very intangible in nature so on a strict comparitive basis it's nearly impossible to have a meaningful dialogue..

Take for example the mask R & R.. I'm confident that ecery agency has that as part of it's core S & P.. So on a strict comparitive basis you won't see a difference between Agency X and Agency Y.. However when you then take that to the next step Agency X may require the skill be done with nuetral buoyancy whereas Agency Y may allow the student to be planted on his knees, possibly overweighted.. There is a huge difference is teh preformance of the skill in the above example, but yet you wouldn't know it if you simply look to the S & P's..

I like to say that the local Junior college requires a math class and so does Harvard, would it be fair to assume that since both college's require a math class that the end result of teh training is the same???

Later

 

[Scuba]

1) Should an "Instructor's forum" be closed to all but those who are DM and higher? Should it be restricted to only instructors?

I would like it to remain open to all. Much of what I like about this forum is the many perspectives you get on things, all the way from experts doing research to someone who has not even taken a diving class yet. Helps to keep everyone on their toes. I would imagine that instructors surely want to consider students point of view. To see things from their perspective can only but help you to better help them.

Its just a matter of staying on topic, like all threads.

Whats next, cave certification for cave forum, wreck for wreck forum, how about the medical section, do we need to have a doctorate and be doing research to see and post - or just be bent, maybe?

4) Would there be any areas that should remain off-topic, even for such a forum.

Taboos? No, no.... no, no..... no. There is no reason why agency differences, pros and cons, can't be discussed civilly in order to gain a better understanding.

 

[MikeFerrara]

MHK has IMO hit the nail on the head. You can do a thing once poorly or master it to the point it is truely easy and can be done without loosing control. I would like to see some of this varience go away. Wether it's by way of standards changes or instructor/consumer education. As I stated earlier I can't assume an instructor or DM is proficient.

Yes agencies differ. However, I also believe that good instructors train good divers in spite of the agency. It would be great if you could rely on the agency to tell you how but...

BTW, my boss at my day job can't tell me how to do my job either and I don't need him too.

There are philosophical differences between agencies and instructors. That won't change. Why should that stop us from discussing how to teach trim, buoyancy control, dive planning team diving skills or situational awareness? do we all agree that these things need to be tought.

Speaking for myself, I have no misplaced loyalty to any agency. I need an agency to get insurance and issue a card that is recognized. When I am in the water with students there isn't any agency there it's me, the students and my staff. I answer their questions concerns and make sure that the number of ascents equals the number of descents.

Possibly if an instructor convinces another that his way or his agencies way really works better that philosophy will find it's way to the agency. On the other hand if two different methods produce the same quality diver then maybe we have found a difference that isn't significant.

I'm trying to get some of you instructors to let me in on some of your tricks. That's more usefull than deciding which agency has their head further into the dark.

 

[Divesherpa]

NetDoc once bubbled...
and currently we are exploring this concept amongst the moderators. While all of us moderators seem to have some opinions about the mechanics and focus of this forum, I would like yours... Feel free to PM me or just post the answers to these questions:

1) Should an "Instructor's forum" be closed to all but those who are DM and higher? Should it be restricted to only instructors?

I would support DM and above with the only exceptions being Moderation (aren't some of the moderators instructors?)

2) Should admission to that forum be in the form of a verifiable cert # and name? (WIll not be given out to the rest of the forum or board)

Yes, I will gladly provide the information as would anyone who wanted to be taken seriously. Confidentiality would have to be guaranteed as other instructor/friends would also input if anonymity could be insured

3) Should the right to assert that you ARE an instructor anywhere on the board be tied to that same verification?

Tough to regulate. That would be best decided by moderators

4) Would there be any areas that should remain off-topic, even for such a forum?

Freedom of speech is a good thing as long as we could keep the mudslinging to a minimum. I would support improper behavior (to be determined by the group) causing an instructor to be banned from posting. (including myself if I got out of hand)
I have my own answers to these questions, but will not elaborate until I hear from youse guys first.

 

[devilfish]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
When I am in the water with students there isn't any agency there it's me, the students and my staff.

Amen, thats the way it should be. I have never seen an agency logo on an exhaled bubble.

 

[MHK]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
MHK has IMO hit the nail on the head. You can do a thing once poorly or master it to the point it is truely easy and can be done without loosing control. I would like to see some of this varience go away. Wether it's by way of standards changes or instructor/consumer education. As I stated earlier I can't assume an instructor or DM is proficient.

Yes agencies differ. However, I also believe that good instructors train good divers in spite of the agency. It would be great if you could rely on the agency to tell you how but...

.

Mike,

I sounds as though you and I are on the same page.. What I try to do by my presence on these forums is to try to point out what I see is the differences.. It seems to me that so much pressure is put into reducing the amount of the time an instructor spends with his student. FTR, I'd like to see that trend get reversed. For example I think the idea of allowing all of the academics to be done over the internet or telephone is a horrible idea.. I've heard most of the agruments in favor of remote learning, but in my view the exchamges that take place between student and instructor are invaluable, not to mention that perhaps another student may raise an issue that you hadn't considered.

There is a vested interest in the status quo to keep diver's focused on comparing S & P to S & P's because at the end of the day the RSTC is really the model, so by focusing in on the core it's less likley diver's can make the distinction..

Some of the drills we like to use that we think seperates us from the rest is in order to help with what we term * Situation Awareness* we have a dive team do an ascent and descent from the surface to 40'.. However we require that at every 10' the team stop for 30 seconds. So we want the move done in 30 seconds, and then the stop for 30 seconds.. It sounds like an elementary skill on the face of it, but try getting a team to move in those precise movements and it forces the team to monitor many things at once.. Depth, time, team, equipment, buoynacy etc.. We'll do this in a free open ocean forum and then we may throw in a *complication* depending on the skill level.. Maybe we'll throw in an OOA or take off a diver's mask which will mean the team will have to coordinate the movements of the diver without the mask.. You'll be surprised how few teams can actually do this drill in the alloted time.. We've had teams that did it in 13 minutes or 4 minutes and what that demonstrates is lack of precision.. Again these are the intangibles that we believe seperate us from a class that may just require that the student sit on their knees, put a few extra pounds on and then do the skill..

Hopefully, I've just given you one of our tricks, I can't give them all away ;-)

Later