Instructor sentenced after diver's death

[Celt]

To say that dive ops are "actively promoting" the idea that divers should place their safety in the hands of their DM and pay the higher price because they are unable to dive safely without such guidance is again, simply ridiculous. I haven't seen that "promotion" anywhere, all I see in most places is that either a dive guide is included in the cost of the dive, or it's not, then the cost of hiring a guide is $XX as listed on their pricing page, with a few encouraging things thrown in to promote their DM service such as they will take care of navigation and they can point out more critters, that sort of thing.

It is certainly better for the dive community (both sellers of services and divers themselves) if divers are self reliant and there are less accidents and less lawsuits and less bad press.



Once again you start to make a valid argument, which subsequently implodes because you are doing a poor job of presenting it. What is all this nonsense about "if they weren't happy to make the dive together they never should have got in the water?".

Divers usually experience problems AFTER they splash in, and find themselves in an unexpected current, or deeper than expected, or colder, or they have an equipment issue, or they see a really big fish, or any number of issues that only arise during the dive- at which point the divers are supposedly trained to know enough to call the dive, and if they persist on continuing the dive as the problems continue to intensify, they have only themselves to blame.

I meant if they weren’t happy to make the dive without the guide, they shouldn’t have dived.

 

[boulderjohn]

Would they have done the dive without the guide? If the answer is no then they shouldn’t have done it. It is that simple.

It is only that simple if by simple you mean absurdly foolish.

ALL agencies tell students that if they are to attempt a dive beyond their experience level, they should seek expert guidance. Dive operations offer services for people who are diving beyond their experience. As dive students, they were told by their instruction to seek expert guidance for a dive like that. They sought expert guidance. Not being experts, they did not know that what they got instead was a joke.

 

[Celt]

Then why would someone ever hire a guide? It's common practice to hire a guide when diving a new area/conditions. A buddy pair diving the ocean for the first time, or drift diving, or kelp forest diving, or shore diving, particularly if early in their diving, often hire a guide to 'show them the ropes,' so they've got onsite advice, a little coaching as to planning strategy and tactics for dealing with the conditions, and someone seasoned to intervene if events become problematic.

Putting aside all other logistical issues and alleged liabilities, I don't see how that contention stands.

Richard.

Very simple you take it in small steps that your comfortable with. You check the site, the weather, the sea state, the depth, is there a tide. All basic common sense steps,

 

[drrich2]

Very simple you take it in small steps that your comfortable with.

That's a way, not the only way, in some cases might not be a practical way, and it's not clear it's the best way.

Without creating a major tangent or beating a dead horse into glue, let's say I suddenly have a passion to dive northern California's Monastery Beach...which I've heard is nicknamed Mortuary Beach, and has claimed a number of lives over time. I've shore dove before in the tropics; I've dove a bit in southern California. But I have not dove the type of overall scenario I've read about in discussions of Monastery Beach.

If I wanted to fly out to California and dive it, I'd read about it, but I don't think there's any substitute for hiring a seasoned guide to go with me the first dive or two.

If someone else with my experience and ability wanted to do the same thing, flew out, didn't hire a guide and tried your approach, the question occurs to me, who's more likely to survive the dive...me or the other guy?

Richard.

 

[Celt]

Okay, I am calling Bolsch on you. I read your comments and have been assuming you are an instant expert after a couple of seasons playing tech diver around the local quarry. Where did you receive your training? ‘Cause according to your profile, you are an uncertified diver wreck diving in Northern Europe. No boat is going to let you piddle around on a wreck in those waters with NO CERTIFICATION. And I am quite certain that diving in Ireland has been expecting SOME documented training during the 1970s.

I am fine with you talking from a place of ignorance as long as you are honest with your credentials.

If its a bit of paper your looking for then your out of luck, i started diving when i was 16 with a spiro 72cuft and spiro 8 reg and a bad wet suit, all of which i got for painting a house. The people i dived with were commercial divers Cormac Walsh IMCA certified air diving superintendent and my brother Paddy Riordan. For 20 years we salvage nonferrous metal from wreck on the western approaches, When you have harrowed what i have ploughed you can talk about credentials

 

[Celt]

That's a way, not the only way, in some cases might not be a practical way, and it's not clear it's the best way.

Without creating a major tangent or beating a dead horse into glue, let's say I suddenly have a passion to dive northern California's Monastery Beach...which I've heard is nicknamed Mortuary Beach, and has claimed a number of lives over time. I've shore dove before in the tropics; I've dove a bit in southern California. But I have not dove the type of overall scenario I've read about in discussions of Monastery Beach.

If I wanted to fly out of California and dive it, I'd read about it, but I don't think there's any substitute for hiring a seasoned guide to go with me the first dive or two.

If someone else with my experience and ability wanted to do the same thing, flew out, didn't hire a guide and tried your approach, the question occurs to me, who's more likely to survive the dive...me or the other guy?

Richard.

that would depend on the guide you hired

 

[frogster84]

At least according to the reports (and the thread title) the couple were diving with an instructor (not just a guide). That's exact what every training agency tells you to do when going out into unfamiliar territory.
That instructor, despite his supposed superior knowledge and skill did not complain about the tanks (10 ltrs. for 30 meters in cold water takes a lot of balls and no knowledge of gas-planning) or the overweighted diver. Furthermore he deflated the victims BCD, thereby he exacerbated the situation – I can fully understand that he was found at least partially culpable.
With only a handful of dives I didn’t know what I didn’t know – essentially every dive was a “trust me dive”. Only looking back (and at my logbook) I realize some of the stuff I pulled was quite dangerous…


Regarding the civil liabilities – most likely the dive shop will be responsible for those since it was the contract partner of the couple. Depending on the contract structure, it might be able to recoup its loss from the instructor or his insurance…

 

[Dan]

The worst part of the (instructor) guide was leaving behind the victim who was in dire need to be rescued. As mentioned before the victim was found at 36m. He could be panicking & passed out when he was sinking in the freezing water. Had the guide chased him back down and reinflated his BCD, he could easily be lifted up back to the surface and saved his life.

 

[CT-Rich]

that would depend on the guide you hired

So this is the point you are arguing against... you hire a guide (or in this case instructor) to lend his expertise to a challenging dive. and he is totally incompetent and during the dive that he set up, your husband dies. This is EXACTLY what happened. They paid the instructor to help plan, equip and execute the dive. Yes, they could have thumbed the dive, but we have no idea about what was going on in their minds. The trial was about whether the guide acted in a responsible, professional manner. If you are on a commercial job and a support person f’s up and puts you in a bad situation, do you let him off the hook or do you hold him accountable for his mistakes? Or is it your bad luck to get killed and this guy simply keeps his job and we’ll see if he learns from your mistake?

So mac64, you seem to be coming down very hard on a system you have never participated in. If you have no experience with the system of recreational diving over the last30+ years, I am not sure how can have such definitive claims absolving the instructor of blame.

 

[boulderjohn]

People whose skills are on the lower half of the spectrum do not have the ability to judge the competence of those supposedly on the other end of the spectrum. I saw that clearly when I worked in the central administration of a large school district at the beginning of the Internet era. A man was hired who was supposedly an expert in that area. I became involved in that area myself and had to learn quickly. It took me a while, but I eventually learned enough to see he was a complete fraud. He was able to use his basic knowledge to fool the district's leaders into believing he was an all-wise guru. In his role, he made simply horrible decisions on just about every issue related to computer technology in which he was involved, and it was impossible to criticize his decisions because district leadership--who had no computer competence whatsoever--believed in him so thoroughly.

Similarly, inexperienced divers who hire a guide for a dive in an environment that is new to them assume that their guide is highly competent, so when he or she tells them that what they are doing now is the way they are done on this sort of dive, they will naturally believe it. If it conflicts with their own beliefs, they will assume their own beliefs are in error. "It sure feels cold, but the expert says this is the right thermal protection. Who are we to argue?" As for weight, it is hard for anyone to judge accurately, since the overwhelming majority of divers come out of their initial training overweighted and believing too much weight is necessary. Divers need to be pretty far up on the competence scale before they have the competence necessary to recognize a fraud and the courage needed to act on that recognition.