Instructor sentenced after diver's death

[Celt]

So it's 100% of the dive operations in the world that are causing the problem? I wonder why none of them see the wisdom of adopting your philosophy.

Profit is the reason, the more heads in the water the more money. It is not in the interest of dive operators for divers to become self sufficient but for the diver the ultimate aim should be self reliance

 

[CT-Rich]

They were adults not children, they put on to much weight, they did not dress correctly for the dive, they did not carry enough air and when they got in trouble they panicked and headed for the surface, none of that is someone else’s fault.

The shop/DM provided:
Too much weight
Too little thermal protection
Inadequate tanks for the dive
Expertise (supposed) on the requirements for the dive.
A dive master to lead the dive

Basically aside from locking them in the trunk of a car and rolling it off the end of the dock, the dive operator has no culpability? What if the tanks had been been filled with CO? Their fault for not testing the gas?

If you run any sort of business, let me know because I am sure I need to stay as far away as possible. “Our commitment to service ends as soon as the check clears”

“

 

[CT-Rich]

Profit is the reason, the more heads in the water the more money. It is not in the interest of dive operators for divers to become self sufficient but for the diver the ultimate aim should be self reliance

It is in the dive operators best interest to grow there business by creating a positive customer experience. Minimize the number of deaths associated with the activity, provide support appropriate to the customer’s needs/desire.

There are regular charter runs to some of the most dangerous wrecks in the world. People die on them all the time (the Andes Doria is a good example). They vet their customers carefully because they know very well that letting a guy wetsuit dive on the wreck with a couple of aluminum 80s and a cheapo computer going to result in a lawsuit, bad press, the loss of their license and a mess of criminal and civil prosecutions that will likely bankrupt them.

Yes heads in the water is important, but how you get them and build a sustainable business is actually important

 

[Celt]

The shop/DM provided:
Too much weight
Too little thermal protection
Inadequate tanks for the dive
Expertise (supposed) on the requirements for the dive.
A dive master to lead the dive

Basically aside from locking them in the trunk of a car and rolling it off the end of the dock, the dive operator has no culpability? What if the tanks had been been filled with CO? Their fault for not testing the gas?

If you run any sort of business, let me know because I am sure I need to stay as far away as possible. “Our commitment to service ends as soon as the check clears”

“

Could they not feel the cold, did not notice they were sinking, did they empty the tank and say you didn’t give me enough air, how ridiculous does that sound? Are you saying you don’t check your gas

 

[Celt]

It is in the dive operators best interest to grow there business by creating a positive customer experience. Minimize the number of deaths associated with the activity, provide support appropriate to the customer’s needs/desire.

There are regular charter runs to some of the most dangerous wrecks in the world. People die on them all the time (the Andes Doria is a good example). They vet their customers carefully because they know very well that letting a guy wetsuit dive on the wreck with a couple of aluminum 80s and a cheapo computer going to result in a lawsuit, bad press, the loss of their license and a mess of criminal and civil prosecutions that will likely bankrupt them.

Yes heads in the water is important, but how you get them and build a sustainable business is actually important

Grow the business by keeping divers dependent on them. Are you saying divers are incapable of making responsible decisions on what computer and what suit to use

 

[CT-Rich]

This troll thing is getting a bit boorish. Peace out....

 

[Celt]

I don't think mac64 is trolling, he's just taking the extreme position that divers are 100% responsible for their own safety and doing a very poor job of supporting his argument.

In the beginning I did agree with him to some extent but once he starts with the ridiculous statements such as "Dive Ops want divers to be dependent on them" he loses all credibility and his posts just aren't worthy of consideration. It's too bad because he was making a good point before he went off the rails for whatever reason.

As to your (bad) example CT-Rich, if a dive shop were to fill tanks with C02 and there's an injury or fatality they would be 100% responsible because it's not typical procedure for divers to check the blend in their tanks when they are expecting 21% 02. No doubt that would be considered gross negligence on the part of the Dive Op in every court in the land.

I didn’t say dive operators want divers to be dependent on them, I said it is not in the interest of dive operators for divers to become self reliant, they actively promote the idea that a diver is somehow safer if they use their service. That simple is not true. Where scuba diving is concerned the notion that their is safety in numbers is totally wrong and the accident which is the subject of this tread is a perfect example of this. If they were not happy to make the dive together they should never have got in the water.

 

[Dogbowl]

I didn’t say dive operators want divers to be dependent on them, I said it is not in the interest of dive operators for divers to become self reliant, they actively promote the idea that a diver is somehow safer if they use their service. That simple is not true. Where scuba diving is concerned the notion that their is safety in numbers is totally wrong and the accident which is the subject of this tread is a perfect example of this. If they were not happy to make the dive together they should never have got in the water.

Oh boy! Have you ever heard the saying, "You don't know what you don't know?"

You cannot use your 5,000+ dives brain to Monday morning quarter-back what 2 relatively inexperienced divers in a new diving environment knew or should have known!

 

[Celt]

Oh boy! Have you ever heard the saying, "You don't know what you don't know?"

You cannot use your 5,000+ dives brain to Monday morning quarter-back what 2 relatively inexperienced divers in a new diving environment knew or should have known!

Would they have done the dive without the guide? If the answer is no then they shouldn’t have done it. It is that simple.

 

[drrich2]

Would they have done the dive without the guide? If the answer is no then they shouldn’t have done it. It is that simple.

Then why would someone ever hire a guide? It's common practice to hire a guide when diving a new area/conditions. A buddy pair diving the ocean for the first time, or drift diving, or kelp forest diving, or shore diving, particularly if early in their diving, often hire a guide to 'show them the ropes,' so they've got onsite advice, a little coaching as to planning strategy and tactics for dealing with the conditions, and someone seasoned to intervene if events become problematic.

Putting aside all other logistical issues and alleged liabilities, I don't see how that contention stands.

Richard.