Inflator/octo combo + long-hose primary?

[Vayu]

Zendiver, the whole point is that we are diving with longhoses and with people trained with longhoses. We have planned gas accordingly and are familiar with our buddies and can estimate a reaction. Obviously a real out of gas situation will stress a diver and it is a good idea to head for the surface.

Before an out of gas scenario it is prudent to calculate gas so that all stops can be completed. On a dive of moderate depth it is likely that two divers trained on the use of a longhose will be more comfortable with a little bit of space between them. It is a tool to make the dives more comfortable and fun, yet has its benefits in those situations where conditions such as boat traffic do not facilitate a direct ascent. As you have already mentioned, it is also useful in overhead environments. Anyone seeking to take their diving to that level whether it is caves or wrecks should train and get comfortable on the longhose.

Even an openwater wreck diver not interested in penetration should not have to make a direct ascent into blue water and current should an out of gas situation occur. The divers should include in their plan enough gas to get to the upline. The divers would have gone over gas plan and exit procedures before the dive and should not have to compromise due to sub optimal equipment configurations such as a short hose. Additionally, the divers do not have to swim single file. Longhoses can be used side by side or in almost any orientation. The donating diver controls the direction and ascent.

This seems a little offtopic though. My theory is that a diver who went through the trouble of getting equipped with a longhose and necklace regulator would also pursue training, seek a mentor, or become familiar with their gear prior to getting into situations where it would be needed.

BOTTOM LINE: An OOA situation should not be a reason to alter the exit plan or ascent plan. It should be part of the plan.

 

[PerroneFord]

Just some quickies..

Who said the OW diver had to be in front? Side by side is nice. You can even hold onto them like I have when sharing gas.

If the long hose is difficult to manage an exit with, can you explain how a customary 2.5ft hose makes getting onto a ladder easier?

I don't get low on air underwater. Well, there was that one time, but that was different! So my dives would allow me to exit the water with an OOA diver. I realize not everyone plans dives this way.

I cannot tell you when I would want to stay down with an OOA diver. Maybe if we had boat traffic above us. Maybe something else is going on. The point is I don't want to *HAVE* to make an immediate ascent. That choice may well be preferable, but I'd like some options if at all possible.

Wasnt referring to the deployment....was referring to post procedure. Not a smart idea to put a diver in front of you unless you have to...like in overhead which you had better be trained and experienced to begin with.

Have you ever used a 7 ft hose on an ascent then messed around with it in pitching seas and got it tangled up in a ladder when trying to board the boat while trying to keep your buddy calm at the same time? Seems like alot of task loading for the average diver who has never been trained on its deployment or stowage during certain situations, especially emergencies. Why deal with it if you dont have to in open water?

Re-read my post...I basically said why deal with calculating SAC rates ....just make the ascent..Statistically when a diver runs low on air, the other diver is low too. Makes sense right? Then why would you swim anywhere horizontally unless you had to?


Other than overhead...tell me when you think it would be prudent to stay down any longer than you had to with an OOA diver? How many emergencies have you experienced where the victim was calm and collected? The answer is rarely.

 

[ZenDiver]

Zendiver, the whole point is that we are diving with longhoses and with people trained with longhoses. We have planned gas accordingly and are familiar with our buddies and can estimate a reaction. Obviously a real out of gas situation will stress a diver and it is a good idea to head for the surface.

The divers would have gone over gas plan and exit procedures before the dive and should not have to compromise due to sub optimal equipment configurations such as a short hose.

This seems a little offtopic though. My theory is that a diver who went through the trouble of getting equipped with a longhose and necklace regulator would also pursue training, seek a mentor, or become familiar with their gear prior to getting into situations where it would be needed.

Be careful with complacency here.....I supervise or dive with hundreds of different divers every month. If a guy with a long hose and necklace came on board, would you assume they had their act together? No...I am sure you wouldnt. You would conduct a interview with them and talked about a plan and such, compare SAC rates and decide on turn points, etc.....Even a DIR-F diver with 30 dives under their belt, still only has 30 dives under their belt and when trouble comes knockin...how are they going to act? Never assume anything.....never assume that they will follow the plan as planned.....never think that once the octo is in their mouth they are fine and can now be given a 5 or 7ft leash to hang out on. I persoanlly use a 7ft hose and necklace when the environment warrants it.....All I am saying is in 21 years of diving and teaching diving I have seen my share of panicked divers underwater and with very rare exception would I not maintain touch contact to calm them down unless they were full on panic or in a rapid ascent I could not control. Doing drills in the pool or shallow water is one thing, running out of air at 80 ft is a whole new psychological realm to a diver. This might be a moot point if all you ever dive with are Jr. Tech divers or Tech Divers.

 

[ZenDiver]

Just some quickies..

Who said the OW diver had to be in front? Side by side is nice. You can even hold onto them like I have when sharing gas..

Now your thinking in the right direction.....

If the long hose is difficult to manage an exit with, can you explain how a customary 2.5ft hose makes getting onto a ladder easier?..

You seriously want me to answer how a 2.5ft hose is easier than a 7ft hose is to handle. Why do you put a bolt snap on your long hose?

I don't get low on air underwater. Well, there was that one time, but that was different! So my dives would allow me to exit the water with an OOA diver. I realize not everyone plans dives this way..

It only takes that once.....Murphys law

I cannot tell you when I would want to stay down with an OOA diver. Maybe if we had boat traffic above us. Maybe something else is going on. The point is I don't want to *HAVE* to make an immediate ascent. That choice may well be preferable, but I'd like some options if at all possible.

It is rarely up to you in these situations......

 

[undrwater]

A few questions from someone considering going the long hose route:

• 
  Where can one obtain training in long-hose deployment?

• 
  If one has not obtained said training, is using the long-hose a burden/danger to the user/OOA diver?

• 
  Regarding OP; if one were trained in the use of the long-hose (and if we ignore the shortcomings of the inflator/octo), is the OP in a better position than otherwise with a short-hose configuration?

 

[ZenDiver]

Training can be done a few places:

Any overhead class will train you in the use, A DIR-F class will instruct you, Most all Agency Tech programs teach it.

If you are untrained it can be a burden and if not stowed correctly can be dangerous on exits and entrys and deployment in OOA emergencies.

Are you in a better position? That is relative to the dive. In an overhead environment....Yes you are in a better position. In openwater if you are trained in proper use then it is manageble. Short hose is more universally accepted and trained in recreational diving and usually goes over better with said recreationally trained divers.

 

[Aric M L]

Aside from how wierd it seems (to me) to have 7ft of hose around you neck and a necklack octo, is there any real downside? I ask because if buying a longer hose makes it easier to assist an OOA than I'd be all about it, but I have 0 experience with the long hose/necklace setup

 

[PerroneFord]

Aside from how wierd it seems (to me) to have 7ft of hose around you neck and a necklack octo, is there any real downside? I ask because if buying a longer hose makes it easier to assist an OOA than I'd be all about it, but I have 0 experience with the long hose/necklace setup

Drawbacks? Yes.

At first, you have to think about the fact that you have a hose, that under deployment you MUST manage. And by manage, I mean hold on to, and make sure it doesn't go somewhere you don't want it to.

Secondly, some people are unfamiliar with it. I did an OOA donate (practice) with a member here. She had never used a long hose. After doing the ascent on her common octo/air2, she felt it was easier. BUT I did have to show her underwater how to hold the hose in her right hand, while I did the same. Took all of 10 seconds.

Does this setup make OOA easier. By far, in my opinion, and in the opinions of thousands of technical divers. Overheads are not the only place you see these. The necklace octo makes so much sense I don't know why it's not taught in open water. Actually I think NAUI does teach it or they don't mind if it's taught because that's how the NAUI instructors I know teach it.

 

[PerroneFord]

Yes I do.

I find the 7ft hose FAR easier to manage. It tucks away and clips off and keeps the reg on my shoulder. The 2.5ft hose is dangling at my thigh, swinging onto things and in general, being a PITA. Since I have NEVER seen anyone put a clip on a short hose, I think it's far prefereble to tuck/clip than have that dogleash flopping around everywhere.

You seriously want me to answer how a 2.5ft hose is easier than a 7ft hose is to handle. Why do you put a bolt snap on your long hose?

 

[Quarrior]

Got to admit, you all got me laughing real good with this long hose short hose argument.

I've been using a long hose since I finished class and bought my own gear.

Learning how to use it took a grand total of one dive with an experience (mentor) buddy. We did a few OOAs and that was all that was needed.

Let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill here, please.

As for the question about how the hose is carried, it is not "wrapped" around your neck. It comes down your right side from the reg, loops under either a can light or under the waist-belt, then up and crosses the torso, behind the head and into your mouth.

When swimming horizontal, if you drop the reg out of your mouth, and dip your head, the whole thing comes free. That's how easy deployment is.

Once back on the surface, you let your buddy get on the ladder first. Then you can dip down below the surface if there's to much chop and organize yourself and switch back to your main reg. Then get out. Again, don't make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Bottom line is, the long hose is easier to use OOA and IMHO safer too. It ain't rocket science folks.