Incident Today at Gilboa

[Barracuda2]

"If some reporter looking to conduct a witch hunt were smart, they'd learn something about diving make arrangements to get underwater and watch for a while." [/QUOTE] by Mike F.

Mike actually offered to pay for a certification course for two of the TV reporters that were present when they expressed interest in doing this activity. He told them this would give them a better understanding of diving, thus making them a better reporter on the subject. One (WTOL) just might take him up on that.

 

[JEScholz]

Now, I like Mike and he does the best he can so I'm glad they aren't hanging him. On the other hand, if they were trying to hang some of the instructors who teach at Gilboa and maybe a few of the people who write training standards for some of the agencies, I would offer to supply the rope, the tree and the horse.

Mike, Is there a training agency who you don't bash? I am sure there are shortcomings in every agency but who would you call the best overall?

 

[bladephotog]

Out of control of the quarry, certainly. If I though accidents "just happened" I would never get in the water. There isn't much we can do about a heart attack but aside from medical problems dive accidents are NOT "acts of God" they are caused by mistakes and I certainly think we can control those.

Over the years I've witnessed too many accidents and studied many more that I didn't witness and it seems like a relatively few mistakes made over and over. Knowledge, ability, experience and judgement are the keys but many divers rely on commercially evaliable training for a good portion of that and most training is demendtrably poor. You can't ever eliminate 100% of the mistakes but with a deficiency of ability and knowledge mistakes are extremely common. Fortunately even with mistakes being common, they usually don't result in fatality...just messed up dives. It's just easier for someone who doesn't dive well to get hurt and you can just get in the water and watch and see that most divers do NOT dive well. Gilboa is as good of a place as anywhere I've ever been to get a really graphic view of that. In a single Sat afternoon at Gilboa, you can witness enough blatant incompetence to last a lifetime.

If some reporter looking to conduct a witch hunt were smart, they'd learn something about diving make arrangements to get underwater and watch for a while. I think they would have plenty to write about. Fortunately for much of the dive industry, reporters are stupid. Whenever they want to know what causes dive accidents they talk to the people who sell diving so they get fed BS by people who are defending their practices. They should try talking to some folks who know diving but don't have a dog in the race.

Now, I like Mike and he does the best he can so I'm glad they aren't hanging him. On the other hand, if they were trying to hang some of the instructors who teach at Gilboa and maybe a few of the people who write training standards for some of the agencies, I would offer to supply the rope, the tree and the horse.

There is a little bit of truth in what you say and a lot of BS. For starters I spent 7 1/2 hours in a chamber at Detroit Receiving Hospital after getting bent from completing a perfectly planned and executed dive in Lake Huron Saturday. And I get to do another 5 hour ride today. I got bent. I shouldn't have but It just happened. The people on the boat with me and the hyperbaric doc all said it shouldn't have happened. But it did. I woke up at 12:30 with pain in both hands and wrists and it wouldn't go away. Hey I'm no John Chatterton but I believe, and those that dive with me would testify, that I'm a safe, conservative and competent diver. Yet I was diagnosed with mild Type I DCS. Will I get in the water again? Yes, but likely not for 3-6 months and only if I heal completely.

Now about Gilboa. Unfortunately I couldn't go to the press conference on Friday. But the paper I work for in Toledo has been covering this and we were there. Yes there are stupid reporters but not all are stupid. Reporters are like any other cross segment of people, some are smarter than others. Some are better reporters than others. Being smart and a good reporter are two separate things. And 99% of the time the majority of the local media is not out to hang anyone. But it's the 1% people remember.

There is a huge difference between the national and local media outlets. Local media outlets have to be very careful about biting the hand that feeds them and playing nice with their neighbors. National outlets don't have to worry about working with their subjects again. Local news outlets realize they will likely have to deal with their subjects again and again and it's beneficial to play fair. Most try to but of course not all.

We have reporters on staff that dive and that even dive Gilboa. I have a healthy view of how the media can distort things. That doesn't mean I distrust all media outlets. I judge each story by itself. You state that the only people the media talks to after accidents are the people who sell gear. Well guess what? Most of the time they and law enforcement, or accident investigators, are the only ones who will talk. And despite what you might think, most instructors and dive shop owners would qualify as experts in the sport of diving in any court of law. Media outlets can't do a background check on everyone they talk to. And besides, how would you propose the media determine, on deadline, that a certain individual shouldn't be interviewed because, though on the surface it appears he's an expert, in reality he doesn't know jack?

You come off as a person with an axe to grind with the dive industry. As a journalist, the fact that you even offer a rope to hang someone is a red flag that you're not going to be any better of a source than the person trying to sell dive gear.

I like Mike and Jody quite a bit. But he refuses to talk to the media when things happen. Then he complains that he gets slammed by a one-sided story when all he needs to do is make a simple statement that the accident is under investigation and the quarry is a safe place blah, blah blah. Giving a little information would go a long way in dispelling any speculation by anyone in the media or the message boards.

I wouldn't go dissecting what was said at a press conference without double checking your spelling a little more closely. The man made his point.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

There is a little bit of truth in what you say and a lot of BS. For starters I spent 7 1/2 hours in a chamber at Detroit Receiving Hospital after getting bent from completing a perfectly planned and executed dive in Lake Huron Saturday. And I get to do another 5 hour ride today. I got bent. I shouldn't have but It just happened. The people on the boat with me and the hyperbaric doc all said it shouldn't have happened. But it did. I woke up at 12:30 with pain in both hands and wrists and it wouldn't go away. Hey I'm no John Chatterton but I believe, and those that dive with me would testify, that I'm a safe, conservative and competent diver. Yet I was diagnosed with mild Type I DCS. Will I get in the water again? Yes, but likely not for 3-6 months and only if I heal completely.

Now about Gilboa. Unfortunately I couldn't go to the press conference on Friday. But the paper I work for in Toledo has been covering this and we were there. Yes there are stupid reporters but not all are stupid. Reporters are like any other cross segment of people, some are smarter than others. Some are better reporters than others. Being smart and a good reporter are two separate things. And 99% of the time the majority of the local media is not out to hang anyone. But it's the 1% people remember.

There is a huge difference between the national and local media outlets. Local media outlets have to be very careful about biting the hand that feeds them and playing nice with their neighbors. National outlets don't have to worry about working with their subjects again. Local news outlets realize they will likely have to deal with their subjects again and again and it's beneficial to play fair. Most try to but of course not all.

We have reporters on staff that dive and that even dive Gilboa. I have a healthy view of how the media can distort things. That doesn't mean I distrust all media outlets. I judge each story by itself. You state that the only people the media talks to after accidents are the people who sell gear. Well guess what? Most of the time they and law enforcement, or accident investigators, are the only ones who will talk. And despite what you might think, most instructors and dive shop owners would qualify as experts in the sport of diving in any court of law. Media outlets can't do a background check on everyone they talk to. And besides, how would you propose the media determine, on deadline, that a certain individual shouldn't be interviewed because, though on the surface it appears he's an expert, in reality he doesn't know jack?

You come off as a person with an axe to grind with the dive industry. As a journalist, the fact that you even offer a rope to hang someone is a red flag that you're not going to be any better of a source than the person trying to sell dive gear.

I like Mike and Jody quite a bit. But he refuses to talk to the media when things happen. Then he complains that he gets slammed by a one-sided story when all he needs to do is make a simple statement that the accident is under investigation and the quarry is a safe place blah, blah blah. Giving a little information would go a long way in dispelling any speculation by anyone in the media or the message boards.

I wouldn't go dissecting what was said at a press conference without double checking your spelling a little more closely. The man made his point.

Sorry to hear about your hit. I wish you well and pray that you recover fully. I enjoy your photography a great deal and it would be a great loss to Great Lakes diving if you were unable to continue diving. Best wishes to you.

Thanks for the response. I found it very reasoned and articulate. Much appreciated.

 

[trucker girl]

But the paper I work for in Toledo has been covering this and we were there. Yes there are stupid reporters but not all are stupid. Reporters are like any other cross segment of people, some are smarter than others. Some are better reporters than others. Being smart and a good reporter are two separate things. And 99% of the time the majority of the local media is not out to hang anyone. But it's the 1% people remember.

(blade photog- as in Toledo Blade photographer?)

I appreciate your comments here. I need to be reminded of this- but most of the news reports I have read regarding the 4 deaths at Gilboa this year are sensationalized. Perhaps it's a combination of editors and that particular reporter not being familiar with diving... I don't know. It would be prudent, IMO, for them to send a diver to do the reporting on an incident like this. There's just way too much a non-diver would miss. It's good to know that there are some reporters who do dive covering the story. I know that there was at least one story covering this particular incident that impressed me by it's LACK of sensationalism, as disappointing as that may be to those looking for a juicy story.

The rest of this post is not directed at bladephotog- just me talking (and possibly getting myself into trouble):
My mother-in-law hates that I dive. She has called me and sent me articles regarding those who died this year at Gilboa because she knows I dive there. She doesn't want me to go there.

The most recent article she sent me from the Dayton Daily News had the headline: "Quarry claims fourth life in 4 months." As though the evil quarry monster is coming up from the depths to claim his own. The article did mention that Van Losh died of natural causes- but still, the quarry claimed his life?

The final sentence in the article says: "In April, Daniel Freudenberg, 21 of Union and Sherry Eads, 43, of Brookville died when their air regulators froze in the 38-degree water, impeding their breathing."

Impeding their breathing? This is obviously written by someone who doesn't dive. Or, at least, doesn't know that you can breathe off a free-flowing regulator. Am I wrong here? Did their regulators free flow or not? I'm not looking at any of the articles or incident threads- just going on my memory of what I read/heard.

I wound up writing my M-I-L a long-winded email trying to explain, to the best of my ability, how a regulator would freeze up and what would happen (not freeze shut- freeze open- free flow of air). My understanding is also that they had their weight belts on.

This most recent incident is confusing- none of the accounts make any sense to me. Another reason they should send a diver to do the reporting- a non-diver doesn't generally know what questions to ask or understand the answers.

 

[bladephotog]

(blade photog- as in Toledo Blade photographer?)

I appreciate your comments here. I need to be reminded of this- but most of the news reports I have read regarding the 4 deaths at Gilboa this year are sensationalized. Perhaps it's a combination of editors and that particular reporter not being familiar with diving... I don't know. It would be prudent, IMO, for them to send a diver to do the reporting on an incident like this. There's just way too much a non-diver would miss. It's good to know that there are some reporters who do dive covering the story. I know that there was at least one story covering this particular incident that impressed me by it's LACK of sensationalism, as disappointing as that may be to those looking for a juicy story.

The rest of this post is not directed at bladephotog- just me talking (and possibly getting myself into trouble):
My mother-in-law hates that I dive. She has called me and sent me articles regarding those who died this year at Gilboa because she knows I dive there. She doesn't want me to go there.

The most recent article she sent me from the Dayton Daily News had the headline: "Quarry claims fourth life in 4 months." As though the evil quarry monster is coming up from the depths to claim his own. The article did mention that Van Losh died of natural causes- but still, the quarry claimed his life?

The final sentence in the article says: "In April, Daniel Freudenberg, 21 of Union and Sherry Eads, 43, of Brookville died when their air regulators froze in the 38-degree water, impeding their breathing."

Impeding their breathing? This is obviously written by someone who doesn't dive. Or, at least, doesn't know that you can breathe off a free-flowing regulator. Am I wrong here? Did their regulators free flow or not? I'm not looking at any of the articles or incident threads- just going on my memory of what I read/heard.

I wound up writing my M-I-L a long-winded email trying to explain, to the best of my ability, how a regulator would freeze up and what would happen (not freeze shut- freeze open- free flow of air). My understanding is also that they had their weight belts on.

This most recent incident is confusing- none of the accounts make any sense to me. Another reason they should send a diver to do the reporting- a non-diver doesn't generally know what questions to ask or understand the answers.

Yes, I'm a staff photographer at the Blade in Toledo. For starters remember everything we read is through a filter of our own experiences and biases. So what you might read as being sensational I might read as being perfectly unbiased. In journalism we always believe if we do a story where we get both sides angry with us that means we've done a balanced story.

I haven't read or seen every story about Gilboa published recently but I have seen a few. And I really don't believe they've all been sensational. Just my take and not any more right or wrong than yours.

I don't want to defend the Dayton piece, especially since I haven't seen it, but I don't see a problem with this statement - "In April, Daniel Freudenberg, 21 of Union and Sherry Eads, 43, of Brookville died when their air regulators froze in the 38-degree water, impeding their breathing."

A free flowing regulator, while still breathable, does impede, or interfer, with breathing. No question about it.

As for this statement - "This most recent incident is confusing- none of the accounts make any sense to me. Another reason they should send a diver to do the reporting- a non-diver doesn't generally know what questions to ask or understand the answers."

If the accounts don't make sense to you, a diver, how would they make sense to a diver/reporter? The facts of the last case aren't known so you can't expect anyone to make sense of it. Besides, sometimes a reporter can be too close to a story and not ask obvious questions that really need to be asked because they think they know the answer. Having knowledge of a subject certainly helps when reporting but it can just as easily hinder an investigation.

Either way, I think Mike and his operation have been given a fair shake.

 

[bladephotog]

Sorry to hear about your hit. I wish you well and pray that you recover fully. I enjoy your photography a great deal and it would be a great loss to Great Lakes diving if you were unable to continue diving. Best wishes to you.

Thanks for the response. I found it very reasoned and articulate. Much appreciated.

Thanks, I appreciate it. Should have a full recovery. I did another 6 hours in the chamber last night and am scheduled for my third and final treatment of a couple hours this afternoon.

 

[trucker girl]

bladephotog- you make very good points- and you are right, I am reading these articles through my filter. And probably with a bit of a chip on my shoulder.

Regarding "impeding their breathing," I wouldn't say it makes it harder to breathe- more stressful, sure. But the article is written to the general public, not divers. And the general public would read this as a frozen shut, can't breathe from it problem.

I'm leaning toward being argumentative about that. I'm done.

 

[bladephotog]

bladephotog- you make very good points- and you are right, I am reading these articles through my filter. And probably with a bit of a chip on my shoulder.

Regarding "impeding their breathing," I wouldn't say it makes it harder to breathe- more stressful, sure. But the article is written to the general public, not divers. And the general public would read this as a frozen shut, can't breathe from it problem.

I'm leaning toward being argumentative about that. I'm done.

Stressful = harder in my book. But you might be right about how the general public reads it. If I had more time I'd ask them.

 

[Barracuda2]

For starters I spent 7 1/2 hours in a chamber at Detroit Receiving Hospital after getting bent from completing a perfectly planned and executed dive in Lake Huron Saturday. And I get to do another 5 hour ride today. I got bent.

Man, Andy, I'm sure glad you're coming out of your hit well. I got cutaneous bends and very ill for about 4 hrs. while in Chuuk; it sure scared the crap out of me knowing the nearest chamber was in Guam. I thought I was in serious trouble. The differences between your hit and mine was severity level and I did do some things I shouldn't have done on that day, whereas yours was a well excuted plan. I would like to hear more about your dive profile and results and any other info that I might learn from. You can either PM me or start another thread here or in the Accidents forum. Glad you're still with us and I'm looking forward to diving with you again.