In Response to "a Unified Dive Industry"

[Jupiter31]

I have often agreed with your posts, Offthe Wall - agree or disagree, you are looking to bring a new perspective to an industry and are not afraid to think outside the box - and as a retailer, you have a vested interest and a ring side seat to the industry.

I think many don't get certified or drop out thereafter is they do not perceive opportunites to dive locally - lets face it - do the majority have the local opportunities that I have to dive in SE FL - no, b/c I have world class diving w/in an hour of my house regardless of the direction, north or south.

While most do not, there is local diving witin a doable drive of just about everyone who wants to dive - its likely not Key Largo, Boynton, or my favorite, Jupiter, but its water, it affords the opportunity to get wet and dive.

I think many feel (like I did about downhill skiing when I moved to FL 30 years ago - why bother if you can only do it 1 or 2 weeks a year - as an aside, I'm in the minority re skiing as S FL has 2 of the most active ski clubs in the country) the only worthwhile diving is in FL, or the carribean, or someplace far and expensive.

You can't compare Dutch Springs to Cocos, or Little Cayman, but it does not mean you can't have a great dive there.

Until more divers, especially newly certified ones start exploring the local sites, I fear we will continue to lose people from the sport - your other reasons are valid, but I think this one is too.

 

[Peter Guy]

A few more comments from the peanut gallery -- and from one who owned and ran a business (a mail order business with a strong internet base!) -- and who was vaguely involved with my own industry trade group (DMA) and wondered what it did for me.

First to "Offthewall" -- PLEASE get off your high horse about "corporate greed." From what you write, you are a textbook case of one who lives and breathes "corporate greed" in that you want your business to succeed and make money. If that is NOT "corporate greed" then pray tell, what is? In fact, "corporate greed" is merely a code word for another someone's business plan that you don't like -- but is not the goal of every for-profit corporation to make money and survive to sell another day? Please -- stop the name calling, it does nothing positive for your arguments.

Second -- IS there a "diving industry?" I'd contend, no there is not. To the contrary, there are several different "industries" that all have an interest in Scuba Diving but the interests may not be all that aligned. What are the two biggest parts of the "diving industry?" My guess is that they are: a. Travel/vacations; and b. Equipment -- with instruction coming in a distant 3rd. But it is the instruction segment of the "diving industry" that creates the customers for A and B.

If, as I suspect, the Diving Instruction Segment of the Diving Industry is a distant third, then, at least it seems to me, the other two segments of the industry need to boost the third. How? While I have my thoughts, they aren't particularly important. But it isn't in the fight between internet retailing and brick and mortar stores (a sideshow if there ever was one).

Perhaps part of the solution is for the rest of the industry to go ahead and subsidize the instructional side -- IF people really will take a $99 class (but as an instructor I'd be very leary about giving one) then the Travel/Manufacturing side need to promote them -- but make them profitable for the local instructor base to give a good course. (If, for example, Resort X entered into an agreement with me to do the classwork/pool work while the student went to the Resort for the OW dives, giving a "cheap" class would be a lot more enticing.) Or, to take it another step, Resort X along with PADI put together a package with the local instructor just doing the confined water work.....

Anyway, "Greed is good" for "greed" is merely self-interest and EVERYONE wants to do things that are in one's own best interest (however that may be defined by the individual).

At least that's my take.

BTW, my experience with a BIG trade organization -- DMA (Direct Marketing Association) -- was, overall quite positive even though my company was certainly NOT one of the big guys. It, the DMA, did look out for the best interests of all the industry segments most of the time. But then we all had two common "enemies" -- the US Government and the US Postal Service. Perhaps it was so good because "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

 

[mike_s]

realizing I'm the prototype for LDS's of the future, .

If you're the shop is so successful and is "LDS of the Future", then why:

1.) have you been trying to sell your shop?

reference: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/gear-equipment-classifieds/237435-dive-shop-sale-130k.html


2.) then trying to sell off 50% for $100k when no one bought it?

reference: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/help-wanted/297456-partner-wanted-great-opportunity.html


3.) why do you only want to pay your Dive Shop manager $325 per week ($17k per year)

reference http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/help-wanted/297691-wanted-dive-shop-manager.html​

I mean is this the criteria for what manufacturers consider to be the "LDS of the Future" ?

If so, please name these manufacturers....

 

[rstofer]

Off The Wall:

I agree with most of your points but I don't see any proposed solutions. In fact, there probably aren't any.

The manufacturers can do whatever they want because you MUST sell the top brands or your competitor will. And you'll be out of business.

As to increasing the base? Good luck with that. Diver retention is meaningless to the average LDS because the big sale occurs after OW. From then on, it's odds and ends. Whether a diver continues beyond the sale is meaningless to the LDS. The LDS doesn't need more active divers, they need NEW divers.

What you can't get around is demographics. The 'baby boomers' were the best educated and wealthiest generation to date and we're getting old. I'm on the leading edge and I really AM old but the boom includes people born through 1964 and they are only 45 or so. They will be leaving the diving market in the next 5 to 10 years.

I was in 6th grade when Sputnik was launched. It was amazing to see the change in the educational system. People were scared and they demanded the schools start turning out scientists and engineers. They wouldn't tolerate being second to the Russians. NASA created tens of thousands of jobs for highly skilled workers.

But the boomers were a lot like Sherman. We scorched the earth. We allowed schools to drop shop classes to save on taxes and we allowed our companies to 'outsource'; all for the mighty dollar. Yes, as a stockholder, I fully approve outsourcing! The company makes money, the stock price increases and I get more money in my 401(k). Oh, that means a loss of jobs? Too bad... Me, me, me... It's all about me!

We are also described as the 'pig in the python' Baby boomer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia We created the markets and some will die with us.

The thing is, we didn't leave much for our offspring. We drove up the home prices, we held down the wages, we offered them ARMs and they just don't have money for diving. Or anything else!

My guess is that we're on the leading edge of a very severe change in the dive industry. PADI sees it! They are starting to offer eLearning for a number of courses. It's only a matter of time before all of the in-water sections are done on referral to a few regional independent instructors. PADI understands that the LDS is not going to survive and that training has to take place in other venues.

So, Internet sales of gear, centralised equipment service shops, small kiosks for air fills, online training and where does the LDS fit? It doesn't.

Richard

 

[cerich]

So, Internet sales of gear, centralised equipment service shops, small kiosks for air fills, online training and where does the LDS fit? It doesn't.

Richard

I disagree, it can fit and to be honest MUST fit. In Japan before the lost decade diving was BOOMING and there were only a couple actual sellers of gears. the diving and teaching was being done by shops that didn't sell gear (gasp!), independants and clubs. I personally suspect we will be living a variation of that.

 

[Wookie]

So, Internet sales of gear, centralised equipment service shops, small kiosks for air fills, online training and where does the LDS fit? It doesn't.

Richard

Nope, the dive shop must remain for the industry to be viable. Just because PADI embraces eLearning, doesn't mean that all sheep will follow. I don't think the majority are willing to learn to use life support equipment over the internet, then end up with whomever as their final openwater checkout diver. If that is true, then I will haul down the shingle right now.

There are a vocal few that are empowered to research their own travel, buy their gear online, have their kids taught online, etc. These folks are not the majority, but do need to have their needs catered to. Then there are the folks who spend a lot of time on these chat boards. Let us not be swayed by them, as they do NOT make up the majority of divers. The vast majority of divers who come to dive with me are just divers. They don't chat, they have never heard of Scubaboard, D2D, DiveMatrix, they dive with their shop. They buy their gear in their shop, they arrange travel with their shop, they take lessons in their shop, they go to pizza parties in their shop.

We've all heard the horror stories of the shop that won't service your gear if you don't buy it there, or won't instruct you if you are using uncle Fester's old lead, or whatever. The shop has to learn to price any service to make a profit. Loss leader only works in big box stores, or for Coke, Pepsi, or Budweiser. It doesn't work in the mom and pop industry. Try to get them in with cheap air fills, they will get their air fills at the shop, but won't do anything else there because the manager/owner/employee is sour because they lose money on every fill. Cheap OW classes, you have to jack up everything else to make up for it.

I spent quite a bit of time talking to my retailers this year, trying to figure out their needs. It was quite eye-opening. Running a retail scuba store is not for the faint hearted. It's also not for the neophyte who retired as an engineer and translated his love for diving into a dive shop. Talk about how to learn to hate scuba real quick. The job of a scuba retailer is to make a profit with every transaction. I read with amusement in Undercurrent this month about the customer who whined about the boat operator insisting on being profitable. Those that run their shops at a loss are doing a dis-service to everyone else in the business. There is room for fair profit on every transaction without screwing the customer. Trouble is, everyone undercuts the next guy, and OUT OF FEAR, we all drive each other in the dirt.

I'm not advocating price fixing or any of the other stuff that got us into this mess. I give away nitrox on my boat. I don't do it to gather business from anyone else, I don't use it as a loss leader, I do it because my system is long paid for and I think it's a safer gas for the types of diving we do. I'm saying that dive shops need to learn to set pricing without interference from manufacturers, sell their items at a profit, and continue to certify good reliable divers and not scare them away with a grumpy attitude in the shop.

Frank

 

[cerich]

Nope, the dive shop must remain for the industry to be viable. Just because PADI embraces eLearning, doesn't mean that all sheep will follow. I don't think the majority are willing to learn to use life support equipment over the internet, then end up with whomever as their final openwater checkout diver. If that is true, then I will haul down the shingle right now.

There are a vocal few that are empowered to research their own travel, buy their gear online, have their kids taught online, etc. These folks are not the majority, but do need to have their needs catered to. Then there are the folks who spend a lot of time on these chat boards. Let us not be swayed by them, as they do NOT make up the majority of divers. The vast majority of divers who come to dive with me are just divers. They don't chat, they have never heard of Scubaboard, D2D, DiveMatrix, they dive with their shop. They buy their gear in their shop, they arrange travel with their shop, they take lessons in their shop, they go to pizza parties in their shop.

We've all heard the horror stories of the shop that won't service your gear if you don't buy it there, or won't instruct you if you are using uncle Fester's old lead, or whatever. The shop has to learn to price any service to make a profit. Loss leader only works in big box stores, or for Coke, Pepsi, or Budweiser. It doesn't work in the mom and pop industry. Try to get them in with cheap air fills, they will get their air fills at the shop, but won't do anything else there because the manager/owner/employee is sour because they lose money on every fill. Cheap OW classes, you have to jack up everything else to make up for it.

I spent quite a bit of time talking to my retailers this year, trying to figure out their needs. It was quite eye-opening. Running a retail scuba store is not for the faint hearted. It's also not for the neophyte who retired as an engineer and translated his love for diving into a dive shop. Talk about how to learn to hate scuba real quick. The job of a scuba retailer is to make a profit with every transaction. I read with amusement in Undercurrent this month about the customer who whined about the boat operator insisting on being profitable. Those that run their shops at a loss are doing a dis-service to everyone else in the business. There is room for fair profit on every transaction without screwing the customer. Trouble is, everyone undercuts the next guy, and OUT OF FEAR, we all drive each other in the dirt.

I'm not advocating price fixing or any of the other stuff that got us into this mess. I give away nitrox on my boat. I don't do it to gather business from anyone else, I don't use it as a loss leader, I do it because my system is long paid for and I think it's a safer gas for the types of diving we do. I'm saying that dive shops need to learn to set pricing without interference from manufacturers, sell their items at a profit, and continue to certify good reliable divers and not scare them away with a grumpy attitude in the shop.

Frank

well said! Thank you

 

[ScubaSteve]

..... Then there are the folks who spend a lot of time on these chat boards. Let us not be swayed by them, as they do NOT make up the majority of divers.......

Majority we are not.....I do agree with that. However watch out how you center them out and belittle them because they are still your customers and still carry a ton of clout with other divers. These people that you reference are the ones that you have easy access too. Some of us actually know a thing or two as well. Don't steer away from the people on these boards.....use them.

 

[DiveNav]

....I recently posted an article on technology and SCUBA in my blog. ...

Regarding your blog .... please get a nice 3d videocard fully compliant with DirectX 9.0

Videogames are demanding

AM

 

[theduckguru]

Nope, the dive shop must remain for the industry to be viable. Just because PADI embraces eLearning, doesn't mean that all sheep will follow. I don't think the majority are willing to learn to use life support equipment over the internet, then end up with whomever as their final openwater checkout diver. If that is true, then I will haul down the shingle right now.

There are a vocal few that are empowered to research their own travel, buy their gear online, have their kids taught online, etc. These folks are not the majority, but do need to have their needs catered to. Then there are the folks who spend a lot of time on these chat boards. Let us not be swayed by them, as they do NOT make up the majority of divers. The vast majority of divers who come to dive with me are just divers. They don't chat, they have never heard of Scubaboard, D2D, DiveMatrix, they dive with their shop. They buy their gear in their shop, they arrange travel with their shop, they take lessons in their shop, they go to pizza parties in their shop.

We've all heard the horror stories of the shop that won't service your gear if you don't buy it there, or won't instruct you if you are using uncle Fester's old lead, or whatever. The shop has to learn to price any service to make a profit. Loss leader only works in big box stores, or for Coke, Pepsi, or Budweiser. It doesn't work in the mom and pop industry. Try to get them in with cheap air fills, they will get their air fills at the shop, but won't do anything else there because the manager/owner/employee is sour because they lose money on every fill. Cheap OW classes, you have to jack up everything else to make up for it.

I spent quite a bit of time talking to my retailers this year, trying to figure out their needs. It was quite eye-opening. Running a retail scuba store is not for the faint hearted. It's also not for the neophyte who retired as an engineer and translated his love for diving into a dive shop. Talk about how to learn to hate scuba real quick. The job of a scuba retailer is to make a profit with every transaction. I read with amusement in Undercurrent this month about the customer who whined about the boat operator insisting on being profitable. Those that run their shops at a loss are doing a dis-service to everyone else in the business. There is room for fair profit on every transaction without screwing the customer. Trouble is, everyone undercuts the next guy, and OUT OF FEAR, we all drive each other in the dirt.

I'm not advocating price fixing or any of the other stuff that got us into this mess. I give away nitrox on my boat. I don't do it to gather business from anyone else, I don't use it as a loss leader, I do it because my system is long paid for and I think it's a safer gas for the types of diving we do. I'm saying that dive shops need to learn to set pricing without interference from manufacturers, sell their items at a profit, and continue to certify good reliable divers and not scare them away with a grumpy attitude in the shop.

Frank

MOO said the herd.