In Response to "a Unified Dive Industry"

[Slonda828]

Having worked as both a shop employee and an independent instructor, I have to agree with you.

At the shop I had to work within the constraints of the business ... which limited me to how much time I could spend with students, how much pool time I could buy, how much I could charge for my class, and what gear recommendations I could make.

As an independent I had no such restrictions ... and could therefore offer a higher-quality product that was geared toward the benefit of my students, rather than that of the dive shop.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Exactly. I distinctly remember hearing things like "you can't work with students if you do not wear what we sell. People will buy things if you are wearing them." There's nothing like pimping yourself to sell a mask for 80 bucks when you could buy the same one from XXX for half of that price. Gee that Scubapro mask looks a lot like the XXX tech diver mask...except for the price. That and having to wear an octo-inflator make me so glad to be an independent guy.

 

[Slonda828]

There are many good independent instructors. There are many bad shop instructors. Let me clarify this.

The benefit of the shop is oversight. Someone (the shop owner or manager) is usually making sure corners aren't cut, standards are taught etc... There are exceptions to every rule... but this is a big plus. Most divers I see in this area taught by independants are not very good in the water. This may be different in your area of the country... and we can all accept that.

The availability of gear to try on and try before you buy greatly increases with LDS's... and while LP may have the policy you suggest, mailing things back and forth at your own expense (packing it, shipping it, waiting for it to come back etc...) is a big drawback for many people.

Costs with independents are usually higher for education. If they have access to pools for free this may not be the case... but where pool time must be rented - they can not compete with shops on class pricing. So again, this will vary by location.

I've always said that anyone can buy and maintain a compressor - which is why you don't get the airfill argument out of me. You also don't get it because most dive destinations can fill your tanks for you. Most divers don't even own their own tanks... and this is why local diving suffers. Many don't want to make the investment and pay the annual maintenance and hydro every five years. While this seems piddly - I hear it all the time.

The debate will always rage in this industry over why it is shrinking... but the economy and competing outside factors aside... it is a direct result of those in control (the manufacturers) downsizing the LDS into obscurity.

I have to be honest with you man. I do not think that there is a raging debate to anyone other than people who work at dive shops. I think that a lot of us think that dive shops that cannot compete with the internet are going to go away. If they do, then your average vacation diver might suffer the three times a year that they want to go dive and rent gear. Those of us who dive at least twice a month are going to be fine. The worse thing that many of us will have to do is drive further to get our regs serviced once a year (for those of us who cannot fix them ourselves). Oversight isn't exactly a benefit to the consumer, it is a benefit to the dive shop owner. Oh and for the record, when I worked with a group of independent instructors, our costs were lower. If you work with a non-profit agency like the YMCA, the costs associated with the pool are minimal. I know for a fact it costs more to maintain the chemicals in a chlorinated pool than it costs to use the YMCA for two open water classes per month, not to mention the electricity and the rent.

 

[jorge.a.mahauad]

Very interesting indeed!!

I think this kind of discussion is the one that uplifts the industry. At first, I think that it is very important to understand that the average dive shop owner and instructor need to discuss these things, not just the "VIP" DEMA members signing the pledge.

We are the ones on the field, interacting with customers. We should have the insights!

I recently posted an article on technology and SCUBA in my blog. The industry has fallen behind in many aspects, not only in facing equipment sales.

There is a lack of leadewrship in the industry.

Equipment manufacturing companies are run by the marketing guys, not by real, passionate, forward thinking divers that understand the world today...

The links in the distribution change broke long ago. There is no real innovation in the industry. The advances brought by tec diving are not being transfered to mainstream recreational; equipment manufacturers are developing new split fins instead of underwater GPS's, dry snorkels instead of safer rebreathers and more color screen air integrated computers instead of a computer that integrates real time meassuring of actual bubbles in the divers body.....

My point here is that whoever runs DEMA needs new strategies and a fresh mind to face the challenges brought by information age. The links in the chain are broke and will never be restored. It is negligent to pretend that. On the other hand, new training strategies, real innovation in equipment, development of real advantages for the divers need to be adressed.

You can see I'm demanding a lot but that is what is needed in order to make a real change. Not re electing DEMA's board....

 

[ScubaSteve]

.....but the economy and competing outside factors aside... it is a direct result of those in control (the manufacturers) downsizing the LDS into obscurity.

First of all, if you have to push aside other reasons for the sake of your argument, then the downsizing is NOT a direct result of anything other than all of the reasons. So, WHY do you insist on pushing aside all reasons and only picking on the Manufacturers? I agree they likely make too much money. But guess what, some LDS's do as well. I would probably think that the majoy Internet sellers make too much.....most would because it is their money. But if one cannot compete in a given market, then it is time to move on and find another market.

I bought a good camera lens.....holy :turd: did that humble me a little on scuba equipment. So, please stop blowing smoke up your ass with threads/posts like this and post things that actually make sense. I guarantee you would get a lot of support if you were to simply think for a nanosecond before typing.

 

[cerich]

Very interesting indeed!!

I think this kind of discussion is the one that uplifts the industry. At first, I think that it is very important to understand that the average dive shop owner and instructor need to discuss these things, not just the "VIP" DEMA members signing the pledge.

We are the ones on the field, interacting with customers. We should have the insights!

I recently posted an article on technology and SCUBA in my blog. The industry has fallen behind in many aspects, not only in facing equipment sales.

There is a lack of leadewrship in the industry.

Equipment manufacturing companies are run by the marketing guys, not by real, passionate, forward thinking divers that understand the world today...

The links in the distribution change broke long ago. There is no real innovation in the industry. The advances brought by tec diving are not being transfered to mainstream recreational; equipment manufacturers are developing new split fins instead of underwater GPS's, dry snorkels instead of safer rebreathers and more color screen air integrated computers instead of a computer that integrates real time meassuring of actual bubbles in the divers body.....

My point here is that whoever runs DEMA needs new strategies and a fresh mind to face the challenges brought by information age. The links in the chain are broke and will never be restored. It is negligent to pretend that. On the other hand, new training strategies, real innovation in equipment, development of real advantages for the divers need to be adressed.

You can see I'm demanding a lot but that is what is needed in order to make a real change. Not re electing DEMA's board....

thank you for the comments, the petition is certainly not for VIP DEMA members at all, it is for ALL Dive Industry professionals, members or not to sign if they choose. In the 90's while an instructor in the Caymans I was a DEMA member thru my then consulting company. I believed then as I do now that we need to work together as an industry.

This isn't about just a new board for DEMA, this is about a new approach and way of doing business. This is a sea change.

Regarding your blog, another story when I was in cayman in the mid 90's, I wrote an article that was published in Sources (the NAUI magazine) suggesting as a industry we needed to pay attention and embrace the Internet or get left behind....

 

[ScubaSteve]

Regarding your blog, another story when I was in cayman in the mid 90's, I wrote an article that was published in Sources (the NAUI magazine) suggesting as a industry we needed to pay attention and embrace the Internet or get left behind....

I say:

If you are not living life on the (leading) edge then you are taking up too much space.

It is nice to know that not everybody has been blindsided by this thing we call the internet

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

For those of you who may be reading this and asking yourselves what in the heck these guys are talking about, please see the petition in this link ...

Unified Dive Industry: Petition to end the DEMA BOD corruption

It will help explain what these good gentlemen are talking about.

By clicking on the View Supporters tab you will see a list of instructors, retailers, equipment manufacturers, resorts, and other dive businesses that support these changes.

Basically what it boils down to is that what used to be the Dive Equipment Manufacturer's Association (DEMA) transformed itself into a marketing organisation that is currently controlled by a handful of self-interest groups who are using the organization to basically enrich their own businesses (kinda like the US Congress). The existing rules essentially guarantee these parties perpetual control of the board.

A bunch of members are trying to enact some changes ... spelled out in the petition ... which they believe will benefit not only a wider percentage of members, but ultimately the consumers.

Would've been helpful ... given the audience reading threads in Basic Scuba ... if someone could've posted this first. Not everyone reading this thread is a member or DEMA ... or necessarily even knows (or cares) what DEMA is ... I happen to be among them.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[cerich]

I say:



It is nice to know that not everybody has been blindsided by this thing we call the internet

it gets even funnier, ther I was living in the Caymans, literally a stones throw from the ocean, no ac but internet (56k dialup at $.62 usd a min) and getting emails from diveshops in the US that read my article but wanted to let me know that the dive industry model COULDN'T change because students still need training, cards to buy gear(when was the last time you were asked?) and air... by EMAIL to somebody they never met and they couldn't see that change was a coming!

 

[cerich]

Would've been helpful ... given the audience reading threads in Basic Scuba ... if someone could've posted this first. Not everyone reading this thread is a member or DEMA ... or necessarily even knows (or cares) what DEMA is ... I happen to be among them.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

yeah i reported the first post in this thread suggestion it be moved from Basic scuba to industry... but what the heck Bob, not our call

 

[Wookie]

Written in response to a Letter from "A Unified Dive Industry"

Everyone outside of Manufacturing must withdraw from DEMA. The Resorts, Training Agencies and Retailers should all form their own associations with board members who have the interest of those groups in mind. Unification will not work. DEMA in it's current form represents unification and is a complete failure.
Sincerely,

Ken Barrick, Owner
Off the Wall Scuba

I say you're wrong, Ken. We MUST hang together, as we are all intertwined. Without an agency, are you willing to go back to the days of council certification? Want to give an 11 module open water course like NASDS a try against a 3 day wonder course? Where you going to send your divers after you've shown them the wonders of the Maryland coast (and local mudhole). You have a great looking boat BTW. This industry is not just about the retailers, manufacturers, resorts, and agencies, it is about all of us.

We operate in a climate of fear. We fear that the shop down the street will offer a $99 open water course. We live in fear of the 800 pound gorilla training agency dropping standards further. We live in fear that our new innovative idea will be stolen by someone else. We live in fear that we will spend all of our hard-earned retirement keeping our shop (boat, quarry, resort, whatever) open. And we get no help from the government. We bailout wall street, but I can't get a crappy loan against a future government contract.

I'm tired of being tired, I'm tired of losing sleep, and I'm tired of living and operating my business from a position of fear. I think Chris, Mike and Dick have something up their sleeve, and I'm going to listen to it. I'm going to add my comments if I feel they are appropriate. I don't happen to think the manufacturers are at fault in the demise of the industry, by the way, I think....it doesn't matter what I think, we all need to work together to pull our collective asses out of this mess we're in. Pointing fingers at an industry segment will get us no-where.

Frank