In Response to "a Unified Dive Industry"

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Let me address the average dive consumer...

For all of you new to diving, or old... Scuba is a very young sport (hobby, whatever you want to call it.) Recreational Scuba diving is only around 40 years old and even younger in it's current appeal to the masses.

From the beginning a small group of families has controlled the industry. Much like the mob they built their businesses, incorporated territories, price controls, distribution networks etc. It started out I believe innocently enough, but as with all modern corporations, corporate greed and the bottom line lead to MAP (Minimum Advertised Pricing) and MARP (Minimum Allowed Retail Price.) The idea was to protect the mom and pop businesses from one another, keep pricing on equipment high (profits) for both the manufacturer and the retailer, ensure territories so that each shop owner would get all the business in their "protected" territory and business would be good for all. All that is except for the unwary consumer, who simply thought the price was the price and back in the early days, didn't have a reason to travel elsewhere looking for a price - and even if they did, they found the price was the same no matter where they went. It was either pay the price to get into the sport or go play something else.

The concept worked well for many years. The manufacturers profited and grew and the sport flourished. Dive shops popped up across the country. Some run by good business men, others by hobbyist who were not very good at business. These hobbyist needed protection and help from the manufacturers, so they bought into the MAP and MARP pricing idea and as the industry and the internet evolved (over the past 10-15 years or so) they were taught how to rip of you the consumer with inflated pricing. They used excuses for prices being so high like - We give you a manufacturers warranty... and the internet is gray market goods. They'd tell you sometimes that the price was in fact controlled by the manufacturers, which in many cases was the only truth they spoke.

As the good businessmen took more to the internet and volume selling worldwide, the manufacturers found ways to move mass amounts of their goods all the while working less. While the manufacturers have been selling goods directly to these internet entrepreneurs, they've been telling the LDS's they aren't. Continuing to enforce MAP and MARP pricing on LDS's all the while selling for less to high volume buyers.

The uneducated, average consumer - possibly you - was walking into dive shops for more than a decade and still paying inflated prices at your LDS. Some of you may not remember a time before the internet, but I do. I was alive for the first Commodore 64. In those days, diving was propspering. These days it is stagnant and shrinking.

The end result of corporate greed is that you the consumer will buy more and more of your gear on the internet. This alone is OK, and good for many. Many divers become self sufficient rather quickly. The bad news is that opportunities within the industry will shrink. Advanced training, group travel, cool places to hang out with other divers, less buddies out there - as less are trained, a reduction in local diving as air fills are harder to find.

You see the idea currently floating is that cheap internet sales, poor training (by independent Instructors) and less dive shops is somehow good for the industry. The reality right now is LDS's are closing at record rates. A culmination of the economy as a whole and years of abuse by manufacturers. Right now, many of you will walk into an LDS, try things on and then go buy them for hundreds less on the internet. Soon, the ability to try gear on will be gone.

I don't know about you, but buying dive gear without a chance to try it on first worries me. It also worries me that in a sport where retention is horrible (1.5 out of 10 stay in the sport after OW,) making it less personable can't be good.

You, the consumer ultimately pay more for everything in the sport without your LDS.
You'll pay more for training, you'll pay more for gear service (shipping it to and from - and shipping rates keep rising,) you'll not dive as much locally, you'll have to return gear through the mail when it doesn't fit... etc.. etc..

Give it some thought... It's your money, it's your sport... what can be done?
 
I have worked in Parks/ Natural Resources for 27 years. I have seen a lot of changes to how people are recreating both statistically and first hand. The number of retail stores has nothing to do with the number of people doing an activity, nor do on-line sales vs local retail sales, nor do the manufacturers screwing the retailers.

As a really good example - Over the period you list, fishing/huning license sales have declined about 15% nationally. Many Natural Resource agencies are bracing for a decline of 1-2% in license revenues a year before it hits bottom, this trend was indentified well before the recession.

I don't think anyone would argue there has not been an explosion of hunting/fishing TV programming over the last 15 years and an explosion of large chain store retailers like Cabela's, Pro Bass, and Gander Mountain. These companies, largely catalog / internet, became a widely distributed box store business during the period. Obviously no cause and effect on the number hunting/fishing programmings and number of retail outlets increasing the number of participants.

Outdoor recreation is in decline. The reason for this is kinda 2 fold. First, the computer/internet, CTV, and video gaming industry is doing a great job in competing for both the discretionary dollar and discretionary time. Want to shoot, here is a new computer program - hundred bucks is a lot cheaper than $500 for a gun and I don't need to hire an instructor or leave the house. Wanna fly, here a flight simulator program and I don't have to put gas in the car. Wanna scale a wall, here a rock climber game and I don't have to worry you'll get hurt.

2nd, the middle class are being squeezed with both a longer work week and incomes have been stagnant for the last 20 years. Many have neither the time or money to do scuba or many other outdoor recreational activities. Scuba is compeating for a ever shrinking outdoor recreational customer pool. This was occuring long before the recession.

The reality is that scuba retailers are serving a shrinking customer base and their only solution is to expand the customer base. The solution may be beyond the grasp of the industry.
 
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Let me address the average dive consumer...

:shakehead: Shall we :worship: your holiness?

funny-dog-pictures-stupid-magnitude.jpg
 
Ken,

I have worked in Parks/ Natural Resources for 27 years. I have seen a lot of changes to how people are recreating both statistically and first hand. The number of dive shops has nothing to do with the number of people doing an activity, nor do on-line sales vs local retail sales, nor do the manufacturers screwing the LDS's.

As a really good example - Over the period you list, fishing/huning license sales have declined about 15% nationally. Many Natural Resource agencies are bracing for a decline of 1-2% in license revenues a year before it hits bottom, this trend was indentified well before the recession. I don't think anyone would argue there has not been an explosion of hunting/fishing TV programming over the last 15 years and an explosion of large chain store retailers like Cabela's, Pro Bass, and Gander Mountain. These companies, largely catalog / internet, became a widely distributed box store business during the period. Obviously no cause and effect on the number hunting/fishing programmings and number of retail outlets increasing the number of participants. I don't think one could measure if its slowing the fall.

Outdoor recreation is in decline. The reason for this is kinda 2 fold. First, the computer/internet, CTV, and video gaming industry is doing a great job in competing for both the discretionary dollar and discretionary time. Want to shoot, here is a new computer program - hundred bucks is a lot cheaper than $500 for a gun and I don't need to hire an instructor or leave the house. Wanna fly, here a flight simulator program and I don't have to put gas in the car.

2nd, the middle class are being squeezed with both a longer work week and incomes that have been stagnant for the last 20 years. Many have neither the time or money to do scuba or many other outdoor recreational activities. Scuba is compeating for a ever shrinking outdoor recreational customer pool. This was occuring before the recession.

Duck,

Some of the points you make are certainly valid, but you're talking about activities that have been around much longer and are enjoyed by a much higher percentage of the population. You're also talking about sports that don't have such an intensive gear requirement. While you can certainly drop thousands on fishing gear and maybe more for a boat... you can just as easily take the kids fishing free with a $9 plastic rod from Walmart.

I agree that outdoor activities are down. One reason is the economy, another is apathy and depression, another is the downfall of the American family - specifically the middle class. So I agree on the issue - the pure availability of expendable income is down and everyone is in the fight for it, but the sport has never reached it's full potential due to the issues I've addressed.

Will there ever be as many divers as there are fisherman? Probably not... but could we raise the 1% to 2% or 3% of the population and would that make a major impact - yes. Is that possible? Yes. But it is only possible if the playing field is level to allow as much local entry into the sport as possible
 
The Internet has changed every retail industry, and traditional brick and mortar shops have to adjust their business model to fit he new economic situation. Specialty shops all over have been going out of business, just look at the electronics market.

The LDS has to look at their business model and see what they have to do to survive. The LDS has an advantage that many market segments don't and that is service. Equipment service, gear configuration and training. Retail sales margins are slim, but when there is limited competition (the pre-Internet days) margins on equipment can be higher. An LDS that supports their customers without hassling them for where they bought their gear, and without trying to guilt trip them will see increased returns.

I have gone to shops that are stuck in the "buy from me at list price or don't bother coming into my shop." I have gone to shops that are willing to work with you no matter what gear you have or where you bought it. Guess which shops get my business.

The market has changed and the LDS must change with it. While DEMA might not be perfect, they and the manufactures aren't to blame for an LDS not being able to survive the new market.
 
... poor training (by independent Instructors) ...
Give it some thought... It's your money, it's your sport... what can be done?

Why do you have to imply that only independent instructos offer poor training? In fact, I suspect an independent instructor could be in a position to offer better training then one in the employment of a dive shop.

If Joe Instructor keeps his day job and teaches at night/weekends at the community center/YMCA/etc then he really has the freedom to spend the time with the students and make gear recommendations on what he honestly thinks is good gear, not pimp'n what the LDS is selling.
 
So, as a consumer, why should I care if dive shops close? If I can buy gear on the internet for way less, what does it matter? A compressor that fills tanks for two people can be purchased for 1500-3000 dollars used. If I would've bought all of my original gear on Ebay or online, I could've bought a compressor with the amount of money I saved. I still have my receipts around here somewhere but I remember paying 249 dollars for a pair of "split fins" and 90 dollars for a "sub frame mask". I could have went on Leisurepro or any number of other sites and saved an easy two hundred bucks and gotten something comparable. I have certs and a way to fill my own tanks, and I have the internet for my gear. What do I need a dive shop for? Don't say just to try gear on either, because LP has a free exchange policy and they post size charts on their page. So far I have never once had to return something to them for being the wrong size. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I would like to know your thoughts Ken, since you are a pretty large LDS. If you say to train new divers, any instructor can do that. There's some around here who do not have shops and they do just fine. The only thing a dive shop has going for it is for people who do not know how to service their own gear. That's the one solid argument that I support.
 
Phil,
the hierarchy of some manufacturers, realizing I'm the prototype for LDS's of the future

So self aggrandizing know it all's are the prototype LDS's of the future? Well that's certainly something to look forward to....
 
Why do you have to imply that only independent instructos offer poor training? In fact, I suspect an independent instructor could be in a position to offer better training then one in the employment of a dive shop.

If Joe Instructor keeps his day job and teaches at night/weekends at the community center/YMCA/etc then he really has the freedom to spend the time with the students and make gear recommendations on what he honestly thinks is good gear, not pimp'n what the LDS is selling.
Having worked as both a shop employee and an independent instructor, I have to agree with you.

At the shop I had to work within the constraints of the business ... which limited me to how much time I could spend with students, how much pool time I could buy, how much I could charge for my class, and what gear recommendations I could make.

As an independent I had no such restrictions ... and could therefore offer a higher-quality product that was geared toward the benefit of my students, rather than that of the dive shop.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
There are many good independent instructors. There are many bad shop instructors. Let me clarify this.

The benefit of the shop is oversight. Someone (the shop owner or manager) is usually making sure corners aren't cut, standards are taught etc... There are exceptions to every rule... but this is a big plus. Most divers I see in this area taught by independants are not very good in the water. This may be different in your area of the country... and we can all accept that.

The availability of gear to try on and try before you buy greatly increases with LDS's... and while LP may have the policy you suggest, mailing things back and forth at your own expense (packing it, shipping it, waiting for it to come back etc...) is a big drawback for many people.

Costs with independents are usually higher for education. If they have access to pools for free this may not be the case... but where pool time must be rented - they can not compete with shops on class pricing. So again, this will vary by location.

I've always said that anyone can buy and maintain a compressor - which is why you don't get the airfill argument out of me. You also don't get it because most dive destinations can fill your tanks for you. Most divers don't even own their own tanks... and this is why local diving suffers. Many don't want to make the investment and pay the annual maintenance and hydro every five years. While this seems piddly - I hear it all the time.

The debate will always rage in this industry over why it is shrinking... but the economy and competing outside factors aside... it is a direct result of those in control (the manufacturers) downsizing the LDS into obscurity.
 
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