In Response to "a Unified Dive Industry"

[PhilEllis]

The fact is - if the LDS has to pay more for the item than the internet seller can sell if for - then the LDS's hands are tied by the manufacturer. It makes no sense to stay open if you're forced to compete in a market where the goods cost you more than the competition can sell them for.

Ken, there is no question that local dive stores have a lot of obstacles facing them in this extremely difficult time. However, continuing to advance the notion that "manufacturers" are somehow screwing local dive stores through some wildly different price schedule is simply absurd. You can pick up the phone and purchase one regulator from Chris for exactly the same price that I can purchase 30 of the same regulator. I don't argue that some large retailers (who happen to also operate online websites) may be able to get a slightly lower price on an item by purchasing in large quantity. But, it does NOT make the difference you claim.

Please give us ONE specific and credible example of a major internet seller getting a price on a specific item that is gigantically different from a price that a fully qualified dealer could get. Now, I freely admit that volume dealers (internet or otherwise) have some advantages in dealing with the major scuba manufactures, but price is not the most significant advantage. If you REALLY want to know how the major internet seller have such a big advantage over you, it is simple.......market share, a strong financial position with the manufacturers, and cash flow.

Oh, I am not one of those "major internet sellers". I am in the same position as every other local dive store.....maybe even worse. :ermm:

Phil Ellis
Discount Scuba Gear at DiveSports.com - Buy Scuba Diving Equipment & Snorkeling Equipment

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

A few random comments ...

First off, this sounds like a discussion between dive retailers ... is Basic Scuba the correct forum to even be having that conversation? Unless you guys can phrase things in terms that are meaningful to a consumer (which none of this really is), it gives the appearance of talking around the majority of the people who are reading this thread.

Secondly, I could never understand the concept of MAP ... why shouldn't the merchant be the one who decides what price they can afford to sell an item for?

Third, as a consumer, it seems to me that a Unified Dive Industry ultimately harms the consumer, because it takes competition out of the equation. And that never works out well for the consumer.

For sure the dive industry ... and in particular the local dive shops ... need a different business approach, as technology has eliminated the one that worked for them in the past. And it doesn't seem that the current situation is going to keep them in business for much longer.

So given all that ... rather than arguing amongst yourselves (which seems to be what always happens when two or more dive industry professionals have this conversation), how about you guys who are "in the know" provide some thoughts about how the industry can move forward in a direction that accommodates new technology, benefits the "boots on the ground" businesses, and makes diving more attractive to people with discretionary dollars to spend.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Wookie]

Sorry, Bob, but this is one of the most exciting things to happen to diving in the longest time. At least from a resort's point of view. Netdoc promised us our own forum, and I'm sure he's working his butt off to get us one. I can only see this making dive shops stronger, and being good for the consumer at the same time.

Frank

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Sorry, Bob, but this is one of the most exciting things to happen to diving in the longest time. At least from a resort's point of view. Netdoc promised us our own forum, and I'm sure he's working his butt off to get us one. I can only see this making dive shops stronger, and being good for the consumer at the same time.

Frank

Well then, perhaps you could start by explaining what "this" is ... and why it matters to the diving consumer.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[OldNSalty]

So if you guys don't like MAP/MSRP/ABC's, etc why do you do business with the people that have these? Do all makers of scuba gear have this policy? I was under the impression that only a handfull did. Granted, that handfull is probably the most popular lines but to new divers, they really don't know anything about the equipment (for that matter, a lot of old divers don't either)

If, for example lets say Tusa does not have this policy (and I don't know one way or the other) then just carry Tusa. Maybe someone in the know could argue that Atomic or AL or Scubapro makes better stuff then Tusa but honestly, the new diver walking in your door probably can't. If enough shops jump ship, the big companies would have to change.

Just my 2 cents (but because its on line. If you come see me in person, that'll be a nickle for the same advice)

 

[offthewall1]

Phil,

Without discussing names, because I don't have their permission to do so... the hierarchy of some manufacturers, realizing I'm the prototype for LDS's of the future, have come to me asking me for things and offering me things. The one admission I've made each of them make is that they sell directly to the internet resellers. Some have tattled on others - those who flatly deny it and outright have their reps lying to the LDS owners.

I'll happliy give you some generic examples. Not long ago a major internet retailer advertised a childs Mask, Fin and Snorkel set from a big three manufacturer for Just $4.95. The original retail was around $23-$24 and the cost to an LDS was around $11-$12.

You will never convince me that the internet reseller paid $11 - $12 or for that matter even $8 - $9 with volume buying and was taking a loss on every pair sold to the public. You won't continue to convince many others either.

We know you are trying to play the game... caught between the larger internet sellers and the struggling retailers... you are in what my daddy used to call no man's land. A place where no one should want to be, aspire to be or simply be.

The internet retailers are struggling to right now - due to the economy... but mostly to being bogged down with overstock they paid pennies on the dollar for and are now sitting on in a stagnant economy.

While I would never wish ill on anyone, I believe most LDS's around the country will be glad to know that purchasing high volumes at low prices is crushing even the best internet sellers cash flow. The ridiculous and absurd offers I receive via email from some of them should be an embarrassment to those very manufacturers enforcing MAp and MARP on retailers - telling them that to do otherwise degrades their product.

The industry, their products, the perception of them and their attitudes have all been brought on by their own inability to control their own distribution.

When I call my manufacturer to buy 1 wetsuit - and I'm told it is not in stock and not available, but I can buy it from Leisurepro and receive it in a day... that is a problem that is very hard to fathom and impossible to swallow. You see, even when an LDS makes a sale, it can't get the product because it has been dumped to the internet sellers.

Phil, you have a chance to make a difference, but to hit a homerun, first, you must step to the plate.

 

[ScubaSteve]

....I'm the prototype for LDS's of the future......

:huh:

Care to explain?

 

[redacted]

the amount of dollars, regardless of the margin of what you suggest will NOT support local dive retailers across the country. the market is not big enough. Your cure will kill the patient first.

Don't think of it as a patient but rather a herd. When the grasses (diving customers) are poor; the herd needs to be thinned. Survival of the fittest, with some intelligent management, should actually improve the herd in the long run. Artificial price controls and unresponsive business models just serve to spread the slow starvation and weakness throughout the herd and piss off the grass.

 

[letterboy]

:huh:

Care to explain?

maybe it is like transformers . . .

 

[PhilEllis]

We know you are trying to play the game... caught between the larger internet sellers and the struggling retailers... you are in what my daddy used to call no man's land. A place where no one should want to be, aspire to be or simply be.

Phil, you have a chance to make a difference, but to hit a homerun, first, you must step to the plate.

Dude, your statements are sometimes hard to follow.

Phil Ellis
www.divesports.com