My hat off to you Mike.
If you could change one thing about the dive industry, what would it be??
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otter-cat
Guest
I've had pretty good instructors thus far, although I don't think anyone could really argue against improvements in training. My complaint is against the gear manufacturers, though. I REALLY wish that there were more options, sizes available, and gear designed for women of all sizes/body types (not just your "average" women.) And I wish that rental agencies carried more of it, too.
otter-cat
otter-cat
JamesK
Contributor
WOW! I just saw someone from UCLA call another person a socialist, and think it was a bad thing! It looks like their is still some sort of hope out there! LOL!!!!
Anyway, as for the lawsuit topic, it is very simple to stop frivilous lawsuits. Go to a loser pays system. If you sue a company, and you lose, you pay their legal costs.
As far as changing the dive industry, and making the agencies agree on standards, that is a hard one. Whose standards? PADI's, NAUI's, YMCA's, or maybe even GUE's, WKPP's, and GI3's? This would simply be one huge cluster, and it would end up in government regulation. That is something we should NEVER need.
Anyway, as for the lawsuit topic, it is very simple to stop frivilous lawsuits. Go to a loser pays system. If you sue a company, and you lose, you pay their legal costs.
As far as changing the dive industry, and making the agencies agree on standards, that is a hard one. Whose standards? PADI's, NAUI's, YMCA's, or maybe even GUE's, WKPP's, and GI3's? This would simply be one huge cluster, and it would end up in government regulation. That is something we should NEVER need.
Heather,
Sorry, but I can't give you any details of comparisons between instructor courses. I have heard rumors about various agencies instructor courses, but it would not be fair or accurate to make a comparison based on "what I've heard." There's no way for me to know what part of what I've heard is accurate. Even in YMCA I would not be able to give details because it has been about 10 years since I taught an instructor course.
Mike,
Your approach to teaching is the approach I'd love to see everyone take. Unfortunately, the vast majority go after the fast buck and the market supports them.
"This does meet standards but produces poor divers and does not meet the intent of the standards."
I would love to see all agencies write their standards so that an instructor could follow the minimum standards as written and produce good divers. Until an agency has standards that allow this they have poor standards, IMHO.
Sorry, but I can't give you any details of comparisons between instructor courses. I have heard rumors about various agencies instructor courses, but it would not be fair or accurate to make a comparison based on "what I've heard." There's no way for me to know what part of what I've heard is accurate. Even in YMCA I would not be able to give details because it has been about 10 years since I taught an instructor course.
Mike,
Your approach to teaching is the approach I'd love to see everyone take. Unfortunately, the vast majority go after the fast buck and the market supports them.
"This does meet standards but produces poor divers and does not meet the intent of the standards."
I would love to see all agencies write their standards so that an instructor could follow the minimum standards as written and produce good divers. Until an agency has standards that allow this they have poor standards, IMHO.
Welshman
senior member
I agree with ScubaBaby. All the inter agency *****ing in the UK is a pain. Sometimes you think that they would rather spend time badmouthing another agency than diving.
A couple of points here...
Our UCLA friend still wants us all to shoulder the cost of litigation through "insurance" (translate "higher prices"), so at heart he's still a .... (fill in the blank)...
While the "loser pays" option looks good on the surface, that kind of policy breeds abuse in the real world. The real heart of our legal system's problems rests in the jury - our current system of easy outs, voir dire and limited, inaccurate instruction from judges with agendas virtually insures a jury of anything but your peers, and a verdict crafted by the ignorant and easily led.
If you haven't read it, I highly recommend the essays on our court system by Vin Suprynowicz in "Send in the Waco Killers."
VS is a rabid Libertarian and one must tolerate reading his opinions (unless, of course you agree) to get to the facts, but the facts are alarming. His idea of having a "fully informed jury" is the real solution to our litigation woes, for within it lies the ability to actually dispense justice - and mercy. A fully informed jury is the worst nightmare of a trial lawyer filing a frivolous lawsuit.
Rick
ucladiver
Guest
Rick you are missing my point, which is the waiver doen't change anything. Even with a waiver, insurance is still needed; costs to do not change. So prices are not "higher" without the waiver, they are the same. And you are right, the answer to frivolous lawsuits will come only when they are no longer successful (again my point exactly).
Big James, I'm from UCLA not CAL.
ebbtide
Guest
now this is a hard question !
what would i change ? well ive thaught about this over and over and couldent even sleep , so i had to get up and find my answer ,
well there are a couple things ide changeand here they are and here is why ide change them .
first let me say that i too recieved first rate training BUT i wish it was longer , and in more detail !
now i went through padi for my OW and going for my AOW ! and plan on bringing a fellow on his OW and i only wish it was longer !
and in more detail about a couple things but that was up to the instructor who was top notch as well ! the other thing i would change is make the gear a bit cheaper ! sorry but this is a prob in some aeras yes i know there is no price on saftey BUT if the gear was as cheep as the air MORE people would do it ! now ive bought my gear both second hand and brand new ! i like the new beacuse i know what ive got is NEW and not someones elses problem ! like a couple tanks but that too is annother story .
anyway ill shut up now while the getting is good
best of luck and meny a happy dive
what would i change ? well ive thaught about this over and over and couldent even sleep , so i had to get up and find my answer ,
well there are a couple things ide changeand here they are and here is why ide change them .
first let me say that i too recieved first rate training BUT i wish it was longer , and in more detail !
now i went through padi for my OW and going for my AOW ! and plan on bringing a fellow on his OW and i only wish it was longer !
and in more detail about a couple things but that was up to the instructor who was top notch as well ! the other thing i would change is make the gear a bit cheaper ! sorry but this is a prob in some aeras yes i know there is no price on saftey BUT if the gear was as cheep as the air MORE people would do it ! now ive bought my gear both second hand and brand new ! i like the new beacuse i know what ive got is NEW and not someones elses problem ! like a couple tanks but that too is annother story .
anyway ill shut up now while the getting is good
best of luck and meny a happy dive
ebbtide,
If your class wasn't long enough and didn't go into enough detail then I don't care what agency it was or who taught it - by defination it wasn't "first rate."
If your class wasn't long enough and didn't go into enough detail then I don't care what agency it was or who taught it - by defination it wasn't "first rate."
Let me see if I can make this real simple. You take all the money involved in product liability litigation - awards, attorney fees, court costs, lawyer fees for drawing up paperwork like waivers, administrative fees and salaries for all those insurance workers who maintain the policies to cover the product liability portion, wages paid while workers aren't working but litigating... all of it. That cost is added directly to product costs. Directly. It raises prices directly. The best and most obvious example is the light airplane - a Cherokee 140 for example, which went from $8,000 to $80,000 in less than a decade - inflation of direct manufacturing costs accounted for about $6K of that - the rest was to cover liability after an insane "crash survivability requirement" verdict rendered every crash a litigation cash cow, regardless of cause. If I could opt out of the litigation game I could have the airplane for $20K today instead of 120!
Ever looked at a doctor's malpractice insurance bill? The insurance company takes more home than the doctor doing the actual work in many cases. And the patient has to pay or the doctor doesn't eat - and if he doesn't eat he doesn't doctor.
Bottom line - litigation costs are recouped in product prices. Prices could be reduced if litigation were waived.
Rick
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