Ice Diving....Your thoughts

[DA Aquamaster]

Your single diver approach violates the buddy principle. That is reason enough to discard it. Sending a single diver under the ice would violate agency standards leaving the dive supervisor unprotected in case any thing went wrong. In today's litigeous society, it would be extremely foolish to violate agency standards.

We'll have to agree to disagree on a few points.

1. Legally the standard is whether the person responsible acted reasonably and prudently. This has created a catch-22 of sorts as the argument then gets made that the person acted reasonably and prudently or not soley because he or she conformed to agency standards which in turn supports the continuation of those standards even if they are seriously outdated and do not reflect current/recent advances in equipment and training. So in short, we keep existing standards because they have the appearance of prudence, if perhaps not the actual substance.

On the other hand, a "reasonable and prudent" person could conduct an ice dive along the same lines as a cave and defend the use of similar techniques used in much more serious and demanding cave or wreck penetration as a reasonable and prudent way to conduct the dive. Frankly, if no one were ever willing to break away from the herd, we would all be diving with double hose regulators, horse collar BC's (if any) and nitrox would still be considered "voodoo gas". My point is that Ice diving in it's traditional form is getting a little archaic compared to other technical diving pursuits.

2. There is also another reference to the dive supervisor. It would appear his primary functions are to ensure agency standards are followed and then be available to be sued if someone dies. Personally, if 4 of us get together to ice dive, we view it as a joint effort and share joint responsibility.

3. The buddy system is another one of those agency standards that does not always make sense but is none the less accepted as a neccesary condition for safety as so many people have been indoctrinated to believe it is not "prudent" to dive without a buddy. In fact, the buddy team concept was adapted from a YMCA "buddy" requirement for surface swimmers and was adopted in an era where equipment was much more limited, less reliable and where diving in general was much more physically demanding. Despite it's origins it made sense then, but it is not accurate to say today, with the changes that have occurred in the sport and in equipment, that not having a buddy automatically means a dive will be less safe. There are cetainly some commercial and technical situations that I have been in where a buddy would have just increased the risk to one or more of the divers.

And then there is the valid point that the tender can be considered to be the "buddy" for the single diver under the ice much as they would be for a commercial diver in a low visibility situation where buddy contact would be impossible anyway.

 

[Halthron]

In today's litigeous society,

Not everywhere is sue-happy.

 

[texdiveguy]

I came across this thread, so thought I would add just that I to am going for my Ice Diving certf. in Feb./06 at a small lake near 9000ft. elevation in Colorado,,,brrrrrrrr!!

 

[captndale]

Interesting thread.

I also know of somebody who thought he could just cut a big triangle, tie a rope to the middle of it and to the bumper of his truck, and pull the whole chunk out at once. If you don't want to dive sweaty, you can cut the hole the day before you want to dive. When you get out the next day you just have to crack off a thin layer of surface ice and you're good to go.

If you leave the hole open and unattended, I hope you are making some provisions to keep passersby from accidentally falling in. Some kind of barrier and warning light should always be left to protect people from an open hole.

 

[glbirch]

If you leave the hole open and unattended, I hope you are making some provisions to keep passersby from accidentally falling in. Some kind of barrier and warning light should always be left to protect people from an open hole.

The blocks of ice from the hole make a pretty noticeable barrier when placed around the hole. And of course once the dive is done, all the blocks should go back in the hole.

 

[captndale]

The blocks of ice from the hole make a pretty noticeable barrier when placed around the hole. And of course once the dive is done, all the blocks should go back in the hole.

I never could understand why anyone would lift the blocks of ice out of the hole when it is so much easier to just push them under.

 

[glbirch]

I never could understand why anyone would lift the blocks of ice out of the hole when it is so much easier to just push them under.

Well, for one, there's no guarantee that they won't pop back out into the hole where they would just be in the way at best. More seriously, under the ice but around the hole they can freeze in place and become an entanglement hazard for the dive line, possibly even freezing it in place as well. In my mind this is not a good thing...

 

[DA Aquamaster]

We just push the cut pievce under the ice and move it back a few feet from the edge of the hole with a line attached. The underside of the ice is level, so they don't move or slide anywhere. And when we are done diving, the triangular chunk can be pulled back into the hole. There is normally a 4-6 inch gap on all sides due to melting that has occurred to both the edge of the hole and the chunk of ice itself.

We then set up some safety tape on stands around the hole to warn off ice fisherman, snowmobilers, etc until the next day when the gaps in the ice have frozen over.

 

[glbirch]

We just push the cut pievce under the ice and move it back a few feet from the edge of the hole with a line attached. The underside of the ice is level, so they don't move or slide anywhere. And when we are done diving, the triangular chunk can be pulled back into the hole. There is normally a 4-6 inch gap on all sides due to melting that has occurred to both the edge of the hole and the chunk of ice itself.

We then set up some safety tape on stands around the hole to warn off ice fisherman, snowmobilers, etc until the next day when the gaps in the ice have frozen over.

For safety's sake I'd be more comfortable punching a hole through the ice and the block and dropping a steel rod through to anchor it in place. Call me paranoid. And with a floating rope, there's still potential for getting caught. If it works for you, great, but I'm just happier with all that out of the way.

 

[captndale]

Well, for one, there's no guarantee that they won't pop back out into the hole where they would just be in the way at best. More seriously, under the ice but around the hole they can freeze in place and become an entanglement hazard for the dive line, possibly even freezing it in place as well. In my mind this is not a good thing...

In the thirty years that I have been pushing the ice under, I have never found it to be an entanglement hazard. Usually we push the ice under on the side toward the shallow water (the side we don't expect the divers to spend much time on) but the line usually just slides right over the blocks anyway. We use large diameter line so that it is easy to handle. Sometimes the ice will freeze to the underside but it is not hard to pop it free when it is time to slide it back into place.

As for protecting the hole with barricades, we usually use short lengths (3 ft) of 1/2" EMT and plastic safety tape. The EMT is cheap and can be driven easily into the ice with a hammer. We also leave one or more of those little red flashers that you can get at the hardware store for a buck or two. Using blocks of ice around the hole would seem to me to be something of a trip hazard.