Ice Diving....Your thoughts

[octgal]

it would be nice to have, its just not working out that way this year. If i had a choice, i would do that first. I'm not doing cave to get a C card, i'm doing it because i think it would be amazing, and I believe, with proper training and knowledge, i'll be ok. I want rescue because i want to know how to handle the situation the best way i can, hey i've already had to save people in the water before, I think i would benifit.
I have good judgement as to what i can handle and have no problems with calling it quits if i don't feel ready

 

[KOMPRESSOR]

What type of regs do you have? I presume you've got the freeze thing under control, since you're a Canadian?!

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I couldn't imagine that happening to me, how horrible! I've seen some divers wear weights around their ankles too, i suppose to help. I know it must be terrible to have happen, but that would look soooo funny from the suface. I could just imagine if i pulled that on a course FAIL FAIL FAIL lol

so has this actually happened to you Aquamaster? or is this something almost everyone goes through at some point learning with dry

It is something that a new drysuit diver should practice in a pool, or at least in a controlled setting (warm pools and drysuits = no fun at all.) Doing things like tuck and roll maneuvers in training gives you the skills and confidence you need to handle the situation if it occurs in the real world.

It has not happened to me in the water. When I dove a trilam, avoiding the problem was fairly easy because when it started I recognized the trend and acted proactively to prevent it. I think most drysuit divers become very attuned to trim issues. With my current well fitted neoprene suit, it is just not an issue and I can comfortably dive the suit in the same positions I could with a wetsuit.

I have only seen one situation where the diver (an experienced instructor) could not get his feet back down in a normal manner. This occurred during a fast (7 kt) drift dive in the tailrace below a large hydro electric dam. The turbulent currents and eddy's undid his best efforts to right himself and his final solution was to dump his weights which brought the rest of him to the surface. I was trailing behind and managed to pluck his weights off the bottom so we could continue the dive once we got him sorted out on the surface.

And it does look extremely funny, especially when an instructor does it.

 

[electric_diver]

There's a lot of people posting in this thread who have never done an ice dive. I've taken the ACUC ice diver course and done about 12 ice dives. I'll try to give you the answers to your questions.

I find the experience worth the effort. Diving under the ice has a surreal quality to it. Especially on a bright sunny winter day. Becoming a certified ice diver is a special accomplishment and relatively rare in the diving world.

The amount of work required varies from site to site. You have to prepare the site and this involves some snow shoveling. Then you have to cut the hole. This is a lot of work unless someone has a chain saw and knows how to use it safely. However since ice dives require a minimum of 6 divers (two divers, two line tenders, dive supervisor and rescue diver) the work load isn't too bad as it is spread around. Hauling your gear from your car to the dive site can be an isuue too. Bring a sled and it is much easier.

Most people I know who did their ice diving courses, did their course in a 7mm wetsuit. If you can handle the water temperatures below the themoclines in Ontario lake diving you can handle the water temperature in an ice dive. Note that ice dives are generally planned to be short so you don't get too cold. Water temperature is usually about 0 to 2 degrees celsius (32 to 35F) otherwise their wouldn't be any ice.

Drysuits do make the experience more enjoyable. However you need to be comfortable and experienced with your drysuit. Otherwise the task loading (operating the drysuit and dealing with the line) could spoil the experience.

If you have a regulator appropriate for cold water diving (likely you do since you are in Ontario) and IF it was properly serviced you should have no free flow problems. Most of the free flows I've witnessed at ice dive sites are due to incompetent servicing.

Enjoy

 

[BigJetDriver]

Ice diving is really very simple stuff! You pick up the phone and call airline res. Not too many hours later you are on the boat in Belize. On the way out you picked up some ice cubes and put them in your cooler.

Throw the ice cubes overboard (saving some for after-dive beverages), jump in, descend below them.....Hey, presto! You are under the ice!:11:

Now go look at the pretty fish and have a good time in that 84 degree F water!

 

[DA Aquamaster]

However since ice dives require a minimum of 6 divers (two divers, two line tenders, dive supervisor and rescue diver) the work load isn't too bad as it is spread around.

Sounds like a government operation.

Two divers and a rescue diver plus a dive supervisor? It's an interesting approach but seems overly complicated.

Is the reasoning that one of the tenders can't also supervise the dive?

With two divers in the water already, what is the reasoning for needing a rescue diver suited up and ready to go on the edge of the hole?

Does the third rescue diver get his own tender and line or does he hand over hand his way over one or both of the two existing lines to the scene of the accident and then hope he does not lose the line(s) in a big silty cloud of panicked diver(s) at the end of the line(s)?

Not wanting to sound argumentative, just interested in the logic underlying your cert standards.

Personally based on my experience, I am not an advocate of having two divers under the ice simultaneously. It creates the potential for lines to become wound together or entangled and requires the tenders to move around the hole on the ice if the divers are circling to avoid winding the lines. The need to move precludes securing the end of the line with an ice screw and creates the potential for one or both of the tenders to slip, fall in, lose the line, etc. At that point the safety diver can retrieve the lost line before it disappears under the ice or he can rescue the drowing tender, but not both. (Tough choice, but I'd go with saving the tender as unless you have a third tender, if you go under the ice for the lost line, there is no guarentee you'll get back to the hole.)

Having two divers to support at one time under the ice greatly increases the personnel required without really adding any degree of safety. You potentially gain redundancy in terms of air supply (but no more so than if a single diver used a large slung pony) but you gain nothing else and in fact you add a few potential disasters that could happen topside.

In comparison with one diver under the ice, you can have one tender active with a line fixed to the ice and you can have a safety diver on the edge of the hole ready to go with a tender also in standby mode. You can also secure the tenders to the ice as well to prevent them from going in the hoel if they fall. So in short, you have only one line in the water, reduced entanglement possibilities, a stationary and secured tender, and a safety diver and standby tender ready to lend assistance if needed.

If the single diver does become entangled or incapacitated under the ice, he signals for assistance, and if the entanglement or incapacitation prevents communication via line, the tender will very soon send the safety diver anyway after getting no response to line signals. Less people (4), less risk, and at least equal safety.

 

[electric_diver]

I don't know the certification agency's rational for the approach. Both Padi and ACUC use this approach in Ontario. I did a quick search for each agency's course specs but they don't appear to be available on line. You will really need to ask them. Note that typically each diver is on a 100 foot line screwed into the ice and the rescue diver is on a 200 foot line.

Your single diver approach violates the buddy principle. That is reason enough to discard it. Sending a single diver under the ice would violate agency standards leaving the dive supervisor unprotected in case any thing went wrong. In today's litigeous society, it would be extremely foolish to violate agency standards.

I've never seen anything to indicate that your concerns about two lines and two tenders have merit. If you have properly selected the line (polypro as it tends to float up and away from the divers) and properly trained the divers and tenders, entanglement is not really an issue. The line tenders must keep a reasonable tension on the line. This is the key to avoiding entanglement. I've tendered many times with two divers under the ice and a secured line and the need to move on the part of the tenders is a non issue. Liberally sprinkling the site with kitty litter is an excellent way to provide suitible traction for the tenders.

I can't say I share any of your concerns about problems with two divers under the ice simultaneously.

Note that with a single diver under the ice, the only backup is the tender. With two divers under the ice, each diver has a buddy for backup and their tender. That seems clearly safer to me.

 

[octgal]

Ice diving is really very simple stuff! You pick up the phone and call airline res. Not too many hours later you are on the boat in Belize. On the way out you picked up some ice cubes and put them in your cooler.

Throw the ice cubes overboard (saving some for after-dive beverages), jump in, descend below them.....Hey, presto! You are under the ice!:11:

Now go look at the pretty fish and have a good time in that 84 degree F water!

LOL!!!! Thanks for your thoughts on ice diving Rob hehehehehe, i'll keep that in mind as a possibility :05:

 

[captndale]

I don't know the certification agency's rational for the approach. Both Padi and ACUC use this approach in Ontario. I did a quick search for each agency's course specs but they don't appear to be available on line. You will really need to ask them. Note that typically each diver is on a 100 foot line screwed into the ice and the rescue diver is on a 200 foot line.

Your single diver approach violates the buddy principle. That is reason enough to discard it. Sending a single diver under the ice would violate agency standards leaving the dive supervisor unprotected in case any thing went wrong. In today's litigeous society, it would be extremely foolish to violate agency standards.

I've never seen anything to indicate that your concerns about two lines and two tenders have merit. If you have properly selected the line (polypro as it tends to float up and away from the divers) and properly trained the divers and tenders, entanglement is not really an issue. The line tenders must keep a reasonable tension on the line. This is the key to avoiding entanglement. I've tendered many times with two divers under the ice and a secured line and the need to move on the part of the tenders is a non issue. Liberally sprinkling the site with kitty litter is an excellent way to provide suitible traction for the tenders.

I can't say I share any of your concerns about problems with two divers under the ice simultaneously.

Note that with a single diver under the ice, the only backup is the tender. With two divers under the ice, each diver has a buddy for backup and their tender. That seems clearly safer to me.

Having a single diver in the water does not necessarily violate the buddy principle because his tender can be considered his buddy. In many ways a tender on an ice dive can be more useful than a buddy is in open water.

On the subject of multiple lines - I have never found entanglement to be a problem but it does mean you need more tenders. We often put buddy pairs on a single line, with each diver attached to the common line by a 6 foot teather. That allows them to become seperated by no more than 12 feet. One of the pair is responsible for communicating with the tender and the other keeps his teather slack.

 

[glbirch]

Interesting thread.

Don't know about that 'lugging equipment around' idea. Where I learned we just drove out and parked next to the hole. Cutting the hole can be fairly simple if you've got the tools and know what you're doing. Or, it can be an all-day job if you don't. I've seen both. I know two guys who can have a hole cut and be in the water in an hour or so through two feet of ice. I also know of somebody who thought he could just cut a big triangle, tie a rope to the middle of it and to the bumper of his truck, and pull the whole chunk out at once. If you don't want to dive sweaty, you can cut the hole the day before you want to dive. When you get out the next day you just have to crack off a thin layer of surface ice and you're good to go.

For your efforts you can get much better vis than in the summer. You can see some pretty neat things as well. If you cut near a pressure ridge, you can go take a look at some interesting ice formations underneath.

Free flows can happen if you aren't careful, even with good gear. They should cover ways to minimize those on your course, as well as equipment choices. You can do it with a wetsuit, though you will likely be more comfortable in a drysuit. If you go wet, take a couple of thermoses (thermii?) of hot (not too hot) water. Pour one down your front before you go in, and the other one after you get out. My wife tells me it helped her on her course. (I dive dry myself). If you haven't gone dry yet, you might want a few dives in the suit first, just to get a feel for it.