OP
Also UCF, it's the only cave I can get into solo, that I feel comfortable solo'ing in. I have a few hundred dives in LR. I wouldn't solo just anywhere.
IANTD's Essential's Class
- Thread starter Superlyte27
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Honestly I don't see the reverse. At least around here the "DIR people" are 99% helpful and courteous to people with other training and equipment. Regardless of their skill level.
ucfdiver
Contributor
Gotcha. I don't solo anywhere, but there are at least a dozen caves in the area you can solo dive at, so I wasn't sure if you thought LR was the only one.
ScubaFeenD
Contributor
I understand that there are all types of people out there, and some are genuinely jerks. However, when you hear the vocal few please keep in mind that some new DIR divers are just very excited about what they have learned and how much fun they are having in their groups. Perhaps, this will help you understand where some are coming from; i know i used to be guilty of the excitement and vehement argumentation (sometimes i still am
). The good news is that you will have a chance to take fundies in a group of just you and people you want to learn with. Grab a couple friends, schedule a class, go in with an open mind, learn everything you can and decide for yourself what you want. While the IANTD class looks pretty good from what I have seen, you may benefit more from actually taking a GUE course, since historically it seems you have been at odds with them. At least if you do that you will have been on both sides of the fence and can defend ,if you chose to, your decisions regarding diving.
I am sorry you have had such a bad experience with DIR types near you. It seems there might be a different atmosphere in florida than exists in the NW or NE. Your always welcome to come up to the NE and take a class here. Our group of DIR divers here is extremely friendly with divers of all types.
I hope whatever class you choose leads you to the skills you desire. Good luck.
I'm only referring to the OP's statement. I have no idea what IANTD calls their introductory class.
Superlyte, I probably shouldn't post here, since I know nothing about the IANTD Essentials class.
But as someone has already stated, some of the grace you saw was due to the very heavy emphasis of GUE classes on situational awareness and functioning as a team. I don't know if other classes emphasize that to the same degree, unless the individual instructor has either taken some similar training or has a similar approach to life. We have NAUI classes here that are taught much like Fundies, because the instructor is a Fundies grad. But rather than search for a needle in a haystack (just the right instructor for a more difficult to predict class) why not take the class that gave the people you were watching the skills that you saw?
You might find out that we're not all such awful jerks . . . and that there are reasons why we do things the way we do them. And taking Fundies isn't a commitment -- you can take away from the class what you want, and discard what you don't.
But as someone has already stated, some of the grace you saw was due to the very heavy emphasis of GUE classes on situational awareness and functioning as a team. I don't know if other classes emphasize that to the same degree, unless the individual instructor has either taken some similar training or has a similar approach to life. We have NAUI classes here that are taught much like Fundies, because the instructor is a Fundies grad. But rather than search for a needle in a haystack (just the right instructor for a more difficult to predict class) why not take the class that gave the people you were watching the skills that you saw?
You might find out that we're not all such awful jerks . . . and that there are reasons why we do things the way we do them. And taking Fundies isn't a commitment -- you can take away from the class what you want, and discard what you don't.
The Essentials standards, if carried out to the letter, won't get you a class similar to Fundies. While it contains many good skills specific to tech diving, it's not a pass/provisional/fail type of class. That being said, you know the old saying, it's the instructor, not the agency. Slamming all IANTD instructors because some of them are less than proficient isn't appropriate. I teach through a few different agencies, yet it doesn't matter what agency I'm issuing a certification through. My cave course is the same whether I issue an NSS-CDS card, an IANTD card, or a TDI card. My Trimix course is the same whether I issue an IANTD card or a TDI card.
I'm not sure what current cave instructors you're referring to, but I can tell you that I was required to complete internships under IANTD, NACD, and NSS-CDS. While I'm technically "crossing over" to NACD, I still had to complete an additional internship with Larry Green. Had I not already been an NSS-CDS instructor I would have had to complete the full NACD process. Same goes with becoming an NSS-CDS instructor. But both of those agencies have very similar processes to become an instructor with them. Those agencies also appear to be pretty strict with their processes.
I'm not sure what current cave instructors you're referring to, but I can tell you that I was required to complete internships under IANTD, NACD, and NSS-CDS. While I'm technically "crossing over" to NACD, I still had to complete an additional internship with Larry Green. Had I not already been an NSS-CDS instructor I would have had to complete the full NACD process. Same goes with becoming an NSS-CDS instructor. But both of those agencies have very similar processes to become an instructor with them. Those agencies also appear to be pretty strict with their processes.
I can't comment specifically on the IANTD course, but will throw in some thoughts based around the TDI Intro to Tech course.
The good ol' DIR-F, and more recent GUE Fundamentals course really have been so amazingly successful that a lot of other agencies are wanting a piece of that pie. At a recent TDI Instructor Update, a member of TDI staff remarked that their Intro to Tech class could be taught as a Fundies style class, though it could equally be taught as a "swim around and try out the equipment" class.
That, I think, is the key difference between Fundies and many other flavours of course that have been produced by other agencies. Fundies classes are taught consistently, whereas other courses are not.
For example, someone who has done my Intro to Tech class could quite easily slot into a team of three, where the other two divers have done GUE-F. The skills and procedures are the same. They've done ascent drills involving OOG + SMB deployment. They have the positioning and awareness skills. We go over the same dive planning process..... and so on.
I watched a different instructor teach an Intro to Tech class a while back. They spent an hour swimming around in a pool, then did the required minimum number of dives back to back - and at the end of it had done a couple of OOG drills but couldn't hold their position, either vertically in the water column or relative to each other. Yet they "passed" and got the same card as my students.
So what does that card mean? Nothing, really. The variability is so high that I won't take the card on face value. But a GUE-F card, I would.
Like I say, I only know (personally) one IANTD instructor. I don't really know their courses. But I suspect that it would a similar situation to the situation TDI are in. You may get a Fundies style class, or you may not. It just depends on the instructor you choose.
The good ol' DIR-F, and more recent GUE Fundamentals course really have been so amazingly successful that a lot of other agencies are wanting a piece of that pie. At a recent TDI Instructor Update, a member of TDI staff remarked that their Intro to Tech class could be taught as a Fundies style class, though it could equally be taught as a "swim around and try out the equipment" class.
That, I think, is the key difference between Fundies and many other flavours of course that have been produced by other agencies. Fundies classes are taught consistently, whereas other courses are not.
For example, someone who has done my Intro to Tech class could quite easily slot into a team of three, where the other two divers have done GUE-F. The skills and procedures are the same. They've done ascent drills involving OOG + SMB deployment. They have the positioning and awareness skills. We go over the same dive planning process..... and so on.
I watched a different instructor teach an Intro to Tech class a while back. They spent an hour swimming around in a pool, then did the required minimum number of dives back to back - and at the end of it had done a couple of OOG drills but couldn't hold their position, either vertically in the water column or relative to each other. Yet they "passed" and got the same card as my students.
So what does that card mean? Nothing, really. The variability is so high that I won't take the card on face value. But a GUE-F card, I would.
Like I say, I only know (personally) one IANTD instructor. I don't really know their courses. But I suspect that it would a similar situation to the situation TDI are in. You may get a Fundies style class, or you may not. It just depends on the instructor you choose.
Wow! A class that appears to teach DIR type mechanical skills but also some running, sports, pull-ups, and free-style swimming in the ocean. Enforcing physical fitness seems like a cute little twist. I haven't taken a GUE-F class so I don't know if it does this, too, but I know DIR stresses fitness as a component thereof.
That said... where I live there's a UTD tech instructor (my UTD Essentials instructor) who is also a TDI and IANTD instructor. I'm sure he'd make a fine IANTD/TDI instructor in true DIR style.
I don't know whether the IANTD Essentials class you refer to would get you there or not. As others have said already, team awareness and positioning is a key component of proper DIR training (UTD Essentials of Rec/Tec and GUE-F). It is a deliberate training requirement and refinining of skills to get there, not a passive result of taking the class.
That said, if the IANTD instructor holds to similar standards and ensures you're all able to fly in team formation before certifying you, then I don't see why you wouldn't be able to accomplish that level of precision, either, if that's your objective in taking the class.
The DIR attitude goes both ways. I've attempted to dive with many TDI divers who wouldn't dive with me because they have a prejudice against DIR divers and they get as equally worked up over it as some internet DIR offenders as well. I simply don't get it.
In general, most DIR divers I know (myself included) will dive with anyone at least until the dive in question requires specific training and consistency then it boils down to diving with people you know can carry out the dive. In DIR circles most similar trained UTD/GUE divers will be compatible, it is not immediately known whether TDI/IANTD/NTEC/Etc. divers will have sufficient capability.
I got GUE training up through Tech One and RB80 years ago and at the time GUE training was definitely something that was different and could be found nowhere else. In my small corner of the diving world I have watched GUE training evolve along with the other agencies. The level of instructors I see now in GUE has fallen quite a long way from the original and there are many more quality instructors with other agencies now that stress team diving and other 'DIR" concepts.
GUE training is still of good quality but I don't think you can anymore take the GUE instructor card as absolute proof that you are getting a top flight instructor anymore- as they have expanded they have become alot more "average" in some locales the best instructor may be GUE but in others maybe not. You still know what you are basically getting with a GUE class - lots of team diving concepts- high stress on skills- DIR equipment configuration but this is also present now in many other instructors classes as well but you can not shop by their agency label you need to interview the instructor. As you pass the fundies/intro level the interview become even more important as this is where experience of the instructor as well as philosophy becomes a higher priority.
GUE training is still of good quality but I don't think you can anymore take the GUE instructor card as absolute proof that you are getting a top flight instructor anymore- as they have expanded they have become alot more "average" in some locales the best instructor may be GUE but in others maybe not. You still know what you are basically getting with a GUE class - lots of team diving concepts- high stress on skills- DIR equipment configuration but this is also present now in many other instructors classes as well but you can not shop by their agency label you need to interview the instructor. As you pass the fundies/intro level the interview become even more important as this is where experience of the instructor as well as philosophy becomes a higher priority.
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