seanthomas101
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air tests dont test for lead.
I would like to make my own hookah setup....is it this simple?
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Rich Keller
Contributor
Yes it is just that easy with the right hose. I would suggest 50' of new oxygen hose you can get at any welding supply store. They will also be able to sell you the fittings for each end of you second stage hose when you cut it to splice in the rest of the hose. I would also tape a life line to the hose so you are dragging the kayak by the line NOT the hose. Works perfect in a kayak and also makes boat bottom cleaning much easier if you do that type of work. A harness to attach the line to is also a very good idea, the one pictured can also carry a bailout bottle.
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spoolin01
Contributor
Swimming around on a hookah at 25 or 50 ft isn't usually a life or death situation for most people, even given a catastrophic failure of the hose. Commercial diving is likely to involve different circumstances.
Rich Keller
Contributor
Diving on a 50' hose you are not going to get much deeper then about 30'.
fstbttms
Contributor
The bad advice just never ceases around here, does it?
jimmy71
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I would like to thank all for the thread. Was a very interesting read. It reminds me a lot about the O2 debate that i believe has been settled. What is the difference between medical, aviation, and welding grade O2? They all have different standards but the people producing the O2 do not have three separate processes for generating it as it would be to expensive. Ask any welding supply store if it is safe to breath/dive their O2 and the answer would be a huge no. I would expect no other answer from them about their hoses.
All this being said, lead testing is pretty common these days. A home lead kit is cheap and easy to find. I just looked up a product that can perform 8 in home tests for 14ish bucks. One of the things they even mention testing is your blinds. I found this interesting as it was discussed earlier as well. The previous posts also point out that lead content of the PVC seems to be the only difference between medical grade and industrial grade PVC. That would be easy to test for in a product. While i have plenty of grade e scuba hoses, i have no welding hoses to test. I would be happy to test some if someone wishes to mail me a small sample.
Books like oxyhacker and the like have done a great deal in removing the voodoo aspect of things. When people started breathing mixed gasses, many people figured they would die fast and furious. Debates like this from both sides is what is needed to advance our sport. I appreciate it from both ends.
PM me if you want to send me a tiny section of welding hose or know a way i can get some for cheap/free
All this being said, lead testing is pretty common these days. A home lead kit is cheap and easy to find. I just looked up a product that can perform 8 in home tests for 14ish bucks. One of the things they even mention testing is your blinds. I found this interesting as it was discussed earlier as well. The previous posts also point out that lead content of the PVC seems to be the only difference between medical grade and industrial grade PVC. That would be easy to test for in a product. While i have plenty of grade e scuba hoses, i have no welding hoses to test. I would be happy to test some if someone wishes to mail me a small sample.
Books like oxyhacker and the like have done a great deal in removing the voodoo aspect of things. When people started breathing mixed gasses, many people figured they would die fast and furious. Debates like this from both sides is what is needed to advance our sport. I appreciate it from both ends.
PM me if you want to send me a tiny section of welding hose or know a way i can get some for cheap/free
fstbttms
Contributor
I do not believe that lead is the issue when it comes to whether welding hose is safe to breathe from or not. Hose that does not meet the Grade-E specification can off-gas toxins. This is the reason the military developed Grade-E and the reason you should not use anything else in a hookah rig.
jimmy71
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so i, as other on here have done, am trying to chase down facts and printed/net references to try to understand. What it comes down to is that your argument is that it should not be used because if it was safe, they would say it is. I have also not been able to find a reference to what "grade e" hose standards are. I can find grade E air standards but to be honest they do not seem to apply to hoses. It appears that people have taken a regulation for AIR and applied it to plastic. Not sure how that works. I guess you could take grade E air and run it through the plastic and see if it is still grade E air. As I am sure you can guess, that would work for most uncontaminated hoses and pipes in the short run.
The only regulations I can seem to find that apply to such things is a difference between food grade pvc vs industrial PVC. This was determined by the FDA. The only specific thing they say is no Lead (which is easy to test for).
The welding hoses do have different grades but most of this is related to the fire retardant aspect of the hoses. Not helpful in this application
Would you breath O2 from a welding supply store marked as such?
We have this problem often in the medical world. We frequently use medications/products in ways not stated or even against what the FDA says. It costs a lot of money to get things changed and especially when they are generic, their is no economic value in doing so. Does it mean it is unsafe? It is very very common practice and I can even show you institutional bodies that have standards that go against FDA recommendations.
We are a smart group of people, why not dig past the BS and find the facts behind the choices we make. Look at such things like reverse profile dive recommendations. When you look at the facts, you realize that people making these decisions are just a bunch of people in a room arguing (much like us).
The only regulations I can seem to find that apply to such things is a difference between food grade pvc vs industrial PVC. This was determined by the FDA. The only specific thing they say is no Lead (which is easy to test for).
The welding hoses do have different grades but most of this is related to the fire retardant aspect of the hoses. Not helpful in this application
Would you breath O2 from a welding supply store marked as such?
We have this problem often in the medical world. We frequently use medications/products in ways not stated or even against what the FDA says. It costs a lot of money to get things changed and especially when they are generic, their is no economic value in doing so. Does it mean it is unsafe? It is very very common practice and I can even show you institutional bodies that have standards that go against FDA recommendations.
We are a smart group of people, why not dig past the BS and find the facts behind the choices we make. Look at such things like reverse profile dive recommendations. When you look at the facts, you realize that people making these decisions are just a bunch of people in a room arguing (much like us).
fstbttms
Contributor
My feeling on the topic is that purpose-made, hose that provides Grade-E air is not particularly expensive and I'm not so interested in saving a buck a foot that I'm willing to risk using anything that wasn't made specifically to provide breathing air. If welding O2 hose was safe for use, we'd see it being used in commercially available scuba and hookah rigs. But we don't. That's all the proof I need.
jimmy71
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fstbttms,
You position on this is clear. My problem is that I am not the type of person who accepts things at face value. It has never been the way I am nor is it how I approach diving. When I hear a "rule" or diving "Law" I am curious of their origin and rational. I have been very surprised to find that most of them are based on assumptions and little to no facts. The rest of them were extrapolated from data that was not intended to be used in such a way. May things that are taught as law in diving end up with little facts to support them. Reverse profiles and breathholding to name a couple. Hell, most deco algorithms are pretty much made up or based on wild assumptions.
Me this is about intellectual curiosity. I and many people on these forums and especially the DIY people believe this way. Your answer on this issue has been "because" and there would not be a standard if it did not have to exists. That is the same as saying that any rule or practice is in place because it must be true, or else it would not be a rule.
In my profession, I have learned that many practices that have been professed and taught as Law turn up groundless. Once you research and study the origins you realize that they had no grounds other than someone saying it enough until enough people believed them.
It is never ever wrong to ask why. A standard applied to grading AIR can not be applied to AIR hoses. It is clear that companies apply THEIR interpretation of an air standard to a hose. Saying that it is purpose made really means nothing in my book. It was purpose made to be sold as such, that is all.
You position on this is clear. My problem is that I am not the type of person who accepts things at face value. It has never been the way I am nor is it how I approach diving. When I hear a "rule" or diving "Law" I am curious of their origin and rational. I have been very surprised to find that most of them are based on assumptions and little to no facts. The rest of them were extrapolated from data that was not intended to be used in such a way. May things that are taught as law in diving end up with little facts to support them. Reverse profiles and breathholding to name a couple. Hell, most deco algorithms are pretty much made up or based on wild assumptions.
Me this is about intellectual curiosity. I and many people on these forums and especially the DIY people believe this way. Your answer on this issue has been "because" and there would not be a standard if it did not have to exists. That is the same as saying that any rule or practice is in place because it must be true, or else it would not be a rule.
In my profession, I have learned that many practices that have been professed and taught as Law turn up groundless. Once you research and study the origins you realize that they had no grounds other than someone saying it enough until enough people believed them.
It is never ever wrong to ask why. A standard applied to grading AIR can not be applied to AIR hoses. It is clear that companies apply THEIR interpretation of an air standard to a hose. Saying that it is purpose made really means nothing in my book. It was purpose made to be sold as such, that is all.
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