i tried to fly out today and i ended up being bent

[Blue Sparkle]

Thank you for clarifying. In your previous post, the wording (to me) could have implied that you had researched the statistics and concluded that most divers who experienced DCS were diving within NDL's and "the rules."

If you spoke with 6-8 divers and based your conclusion on that it reads differently, and less like a blanket statement.

I do understand that DCS is not rigid and predictable, such as "stand 1mm from the edge of the cliff and you are fine; move 1mm forward and you fall over the edge." It would be nice if it were that cut and dried.

I know we talked about this earlier, and it may just be me, but I never did get a complete "handle" on your exact dive times/depths/SI/ascent rate, and I would be very grateful if you could summarize that for us (including whether you are counting total dive time, i.e. from surface to surface, or not).

I'm selfishly interested, as I have made a few dives on Keys wrecks and I am curious how my times/depths/etc. compare to yours (my computer counts basically surface to surface for "dive time"). Again, I know that doesn't mean anything specific for me in regards to DCS, since we are not the same person, but I would be interested to compare anyway.

Thank you,
Blue Sparkle

 

[RJP]

But... most cases of DCS being within NDL and no "rules" broken? Is that actually true?

In my mind, "most cases" of DCS are never reported because they are sub-clinical/sub-symptomatic in that the diver didn't take a "hit" that sent him/her to the hospital, and they never even know about it. Rather, they "got away with it" at some level. I've even heard a hyperbaric physician suggest that this is why so many people claim they feel "less tired" with EANx - because the fatigue that diver typically experiences on dives with 21% is actually sub-clinical DCS, which becomes obviated once they start diving >21% mixes.

As to no "rules" broken... I think your average diver thinks avoiding NDL, staying above 130' and doing a 3-min stop means "I followed all the rules" as long as their computer doesn't start screaming at them. Lack of appropriate hydration, cold temperature (under 80F is in fact cold to your body) exertion during the dive, too-short surface intervals, reverse profiles, saw-tooth profiles, and rapid intra-dive ascents (not necessarily "from bottom to the surface" but maybe too quick from 80'-40', or bottom to safety-stop, or 15' to surface, etc) can all weigh in.

This is why I love my Suunto computer. It is often claimed to be "more conservative" than others, but the fact is that for the most part it is NOT. It does however ding the user for rapid ascents, reverse profiles, saw-tooth profiles, etc. I "follow the rules" relative to those factors, and when I dive with my Oceanic-using buddy the NDL times I'm given by my Suunto virtually mirror what his Oceanic gives him.

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

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I'm selfishly interested, as I have made a few dives on Keys wrecks and I am curious how my times/depths/etc. compare to yours (my computer counts basically surface to surface for "dive time"). Again, I know that doesn't mean anything specific for me in regards to DCS, since we are not the same person, but I would be interested to compare anyway.

Thank you,
Blue Sparkle

Blue Sparkle,

You are assuming the OP was bent in the first place. Which is a significant assumption. After all the symptoms he reported could, and an most cases, have other potential causes, were not typical of in flight DCS, and his nitrogen load was small. This was either a physiological outlier or not a bend.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

Blue Sparkle,

You are assuming the OP was bent in the first place. Which is a significant assumption.

I'm not sure where you see that. To clarify: What I know is that according to the OP he had DCS, and that he made a pair of Keys wreck dives that sound similar to dives I have made there. From when he first posted I was curious as to just how similar they were to my dives, but I was never able to get a complete handle on his dive times, surface interval, and ascent rate (which I would still really like to see him list here in a follow-up post), so "sound similar" is as far as I have gotten.

Blue Sparkle

Edited to add: Just to explain further, what piqued my interest here was early on in the thread, when several experienced divers said things like "hmm, two 100-foot dives, back to back, with X surface interval...that might be a bit too aggressive." So it's not so much the OP's DCS that I'm curious about now*, but rather I wanted to compare my potentially similar dives to the OP's -- just to see if I was cutting things closer than I thought I was.

I thought I could potentially learn something by re-examining the few deep dives I have made, and either come to the conclusion that they were probably reasonable for most people (which is all I'm looking for right now), or that in future I might want to change something about them.

It may very well be that the OP's dives and the ones I made differ significantly enough for my comfort level, but I was never fully able to ascertain that (maybe it's just me and his details were clear to others).

*OP, to clarify, I'm glad things are going for you in your recovery - I just was explaining where my focus is now, in terms of information.

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

Remember that the only symptoms reported were tingling in joints and fatigue. Have you ever had tingling or fatigue? Were they all DCS? The OP reported that he did not sleep the night before his flight. Is lack of sleep a potential cause of fatigue? Are the cramped conditions in commercial airlines a potential cause of tingling? The symptoms were reported 22 hours after the last dive, and the OP says he was asymptomatic prior to that. Usually DCS presents within a few hours of surfacing because you have the greatest nitrogen load upon surfacing and greatest pressure gradient. 22 hours later you will be essentially at equilibrium for the altitude you are at so there is not much residual nitrogen from the dive. And of course the pressure change in ascending to altitude is smaller than the pressure change ascending from depth in all but the most shallow dives. So there is not much nitrogen left in your system after 22 hours and not much force to drive it into bubbles all of which suggests that this probably was not a bend.

As far as learning from the dives goes a dive to 100 fsw where you stay there for 20 minutes is very different than a dive with a max depth of 100 feet and an average of 40 fsw. We do not know what the profiles were for these dives.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

As far as learning from the dives goes a dive to 100 fsw where you stay there for 20 minutes is very different than a dive with a max depth of 100 feet and an average of 40 fsw. We do not know what the profiles were for these dives.

Agreed, and I have wanted to know more about the dive profile/specifics ever since the thread began. It only seems logical to me that that information should accompany this type of thread (if not right away, then later when one can).

Since these were dives on the Vandenberg, I would imagine the profile to be somewhat "square," although I do understand that the average depth is not going to be 100'. It's possible that they spent time looking at the upper features on the wreck and made it more of a multi-level dive.

Actually, I believe the OP did give some data on his dives, but as I remember it wasn't ever complete (or I did not pick up on it anyway).


Blue Sparkle

 

[BlueParadiseDivers]

First of all, my fellow Scuba friend, I am sorry to hear about your unfortunate turn of events. Hats off to you for realizing the signs of trouble brewing, and acting accordingly. What doesn't add up is the details of the events which led up to the issue. 22 hours should have been sufficient to off-gas enough nitrogen to safely fly and stay within the pressure gradient, IF you have stayed within a recreational profile (NO DECO). As per PADI, multi-day dives or repetitive dives in a day within rec diving, have a suggested pre-flight interval of 18hours. In example: just recently i have thoughtlessly boarded a plane 9 hours after completing 2 dives that day to fly to the mainland. Granted, the dives were shallow (above 40ft) for approx 35-40 minutes each, with a 2 hour surface interval between , (DSD's). However, absolutely no DCS symptoms existed, to my relief.
Yes, your very short surface interval has added to the problems, but perhaps you should check your gear. As we all know we should not push profile limits for number of reasons. Computers are not the gospel. They can be inaccurate for depth and time. Also, although not fully proven to be effective, it is recommended that you perform you deepest dive first, and then dive shallower than your first depth. When you dive to 100 feet, it is advisable to do a deep safety stop to off-gas at half the deepest depth. It helps. Your computer should have a setting for deep stops. Also, check settings to make sure you are diving a full computer model, not reducing the "conservative" factor.
I also have a question about your personal health. Are you overweight or even obese? Did you consume alcohol prior to flying or on board? Did you partake in heavy excercise after your dives? Any recreational drugs or medication which could affect your circulation?

As we all know, dive profiles are not exact and they affect each person differently, but for the most part they are proven because of extensive testing with wide range of individuals. I would suggest back-tracking and account for all the detail which could play a role in your symptoms 22 hours after diving.

All the best to you in future dives,:blinking:
Aloha.

 

[DandyDon]

Blue, I bet he is tired of answering the same questions.

Many of us agree that it should not have happened, no way - but it did. Hope he is able to enjoy diving still.

 

[edbdiver]

The Air Force requires at least 24 hours between the last dive and flying for it's air crews because of the lowered cabin pressure (1000' altitude equivalent). I believe most certification agencies recommend at least 12, 24 if possible for the same reason.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

Blue, I bet he is tired of answering the same questions.

I must have missed where he did answer, and if so, sorry :blush: Maybe I missed something, but I never really felt like I had a handle on his full dive profile. The thread seemed a bit less useful without that info.

And not that he is obligated to share it, but it just seems like if a person would start a thread like this, it would indicate a certain willingness to discuss it. And he has come back several times and seemed happy to talk about it, plus started another thread on the basic topic, so...

At any rate, I only posted the last few times to clarify some responses to me by other posters, because some seemed to take away from it that I was excessively worried about DCS, when really I was just curious to compare my very-similar-dive profiles to the ones that earlier experienced divers had said looked a bit aggressive. I see a thread like this, I'm interested in the data, is all.

I'm getting the sense from you that I have posted too often in this thread (?)