i tried to fly out today and i ended up being bent

[HowardE]

kell490...

Even though you don't have DAN insurance... Did you report your accident to DAN for research purposes? Aside from the inquiring minds on ScubaBoard, I'm sure that DAN's physicians and medical researchers would be interested in your case.

 

[Blastman4444]

I spoke to the DAN Medics several times, but I would only say if anyone reads this if you do think for a minute you might be experiencing DCS even in a shallow dives I would get the information from DAN for the nearest dive doctor and get evaluated for DCS Phone diagnosing isn't good enough. It can start out with small amounts of tingling then if not treated soon progress quickly into paralysis. When I called the first time this was the next day after treatment I gave them some of the symptoms the medic was not convinced of my DCS, but concluded that if the symptoms resolved in the chamber it had to have been DCS. He used my dive profile and symptoms, but I can tell you the symptoms came on so hard and fast it wasn't like something gradual or slight. I felt pain moving in the back of my head I felt like someone took a dimmer dial and turned down the strength about 90% in about 10 seconds. I felt strange on the left side of my body it's a very scary feeling. Don't test the limits you don't ever want this to happen to you it's nothing to fool with. DCS prevention isn't talked about enough in dive training dive profiles are just one part of it. I think it should be talked about by the captains of all boats while going over safety.

 

[Hatul]

They paired me up with another diver who has been diving for 25 years. Him and I went over things as we planned the dive the shop allowed non advanced certified divers on the wreck if you pay for a guide. I still stuck close to the DM and my buddy followed me. My wife only dived once on the trip back in Key largo. I actually had 2 computers with me one on a console and mine on my wrist only because I wanted to try the other rig I had setup for her it had a new 2nd stage I wanted to see how it breathed at 100 feet. I just left that computer in there which she was using. Both computers are Gen Resource pro's the one in the console is older it read little less nitrogen loading then the wrist strap one I had, but it read a foot or two deeper since it was hanging on the console. One will never know if I was bent before the plane ride I think if I had been I would have known because when you get bent you know it. I followed the group of 5 and their profiles were the same as mine. If you read into others who got DCS you will find this common 1 guy out of a group gets bent on the same safe no decomp dive. Both days I was dehydrated, and the day of the flight I was stressed big time and only got about 4 hours of sleep. This was probably the biggest factor in my case. I think the dives on the vandy were the best and I felt the most comfortable I have ever felt diving so far. I have had issues in the past with rental gear regulators but all that I have solved with adjustable 2nd stages I now have. This was the first deep dive I have done with my own gear.

Interesting. The Genesis Resource Pro uses the most liberal Haldanean algorithm when tested by Subadiving.com

Gear / Accessories | Scuba Diving Magazine

It may be that you would have been bent anyway with a more conservative computer, we don't know. But since you were close to deco on the most liberal computer, it would have put you into deco on a more conservative algorithm, which would have helped you by either limiting your nitrogen loading or doing a deco stop to slow the ascent. I see repeatedly people looking for the most liberal dive computer to extend their bottom time and this points out the folly of this kind of thinking.

Adam

 

[DandyDon]

Hatul, even the most liberal dive computers use algorithms as conservative as any OW Agency course. I just don't think that more restrictive algorithms are the answer as much as all of the other considerations.

Still, if one owns a liberal computer and wants to dive more conservatively - as I bet this diver is interested, it's easy enough to stay further away from deco.

 

[Hatul]

Hatul, even the most liberal dive computers use algorithms as conservative as any OW Agency course. I just don't think that more restrictive algorithms are the answer as much as all of the other considerations.

Still, if one owns a liberal computer and wants to dive more conservatively - as I bet this diver is interested, it's easy enough to stay further away from deco.

I'm not saying that diving with a liberal computer is not safe. But you're cutting your margin for error. We know people get bent even following tables or computer, so presumably there was not enough margin for error during those dives. The algorithms are models that provide a safe margin for error for most people under most situations, but there will be situations in some dives in some people under certain conditions that nevertheless result in DCS. A more conservative algorithm provides greater safety margin -- it has to, either by decreasing nitrogen loading or slowing ascent with deco stops. The corollary is that a liberal algorithm increases the risk. You just can't avoid it. You can't stay longer and come up quicker without increasing risk.

On the point that you can just dive a liberal computer and stay away from deco, it's true, but people don't because the computer allows it. If you were to do that all the time you might as well choose the more conservative algorithm and not get tempted.

Adam

 

[redacted]

I'm not saying that diving with a liberal computer is not safe. But you're cutting your margin for error. We know people get bent even following tables or computer, so presumably there was not enough margin for error during those dives. The algorithms are models that provide a safe margin for error for most people under most situations, but there will be situations in some dives in some people under certain conditions that nevertheless result in DCS. A more conservative algorithm provides greater safety margin -- it has to, either by decreasing nitrogen loading or slowing ascent with deco stops. The corollary is that a liberal algorithm increases the risk. You just can't avoid it. You can't stay longer and come up quicker without increasing risk.

On the point that you can just dive a liberal computer and stay away from deco, it's true, but people don't because the computer allows it. If you were to do that all the time you might as well choose the more conservative algorithm and not get tempted.

Adam

The fact is there is no empirical evidence of increased risk of DCS between the various dive computers currently available. They are all deemed to be safe. Yet, clearly there are differences in nitrogen loading as a function of exposure time as well as other differences.

Your contention is like saying that one is less likely to fall off a cliff if standing 20 feet back than if standing 10 feet back. And I would have to agree that the risks is reduced (or at least not increased) by standing back further. And the same applies to 2 ft vs 1 foot and 200 ft vs 100 ft. At some point, you have to start thinking that difference in risk, if not ZERO, is so close to zero as to be negligible.

I don't know whether my "liberal" computer puts the fence at 1 foot, 10 ft, or 100 ft. I do know that it has safely aided me through a few dives. I also know that on some of those dives, other divers with more conservative computers were having to terminate their dives earlier and/or had to do unplanned deco stops during their ascent.

I guess if you do not have the discipline (or attention span) to dive a liberal computer more conservatively than its limits permit when that is your dive plan, then you might be better off with a more conservative computer. I really have not seen divers with liberal computers who ride the limits because the computer allows it. But I have no doubt they exist and occasionally pay the penalty. I have seen a number of divers with conservative computers who elect to exceed their NDL's in spite of planning dives within those limits because they believe their computers are more conservative than they need to be.

Increasing your margin for error and then cutting into that unknown margin seems to be creating a whole new set of risk factors. So, if you decide you want (or need) that larger "margin for error" then abide by the limits your computer sets and wave goodbye to those safely enjoying more bottom time when your computer says your limit has been reached.

 

[Blastman4444]

I can tell you I have learned a lot more about DCS what I have learned is some just don't off gas nitrogen as fast as others or as easy. The problem is know one knows if there one of those folks until they push the limits some I'm not talking about going into deco and skipping a stop. My ascents rates did not violate my computer although they could have been slower. I didn't buy the resource pro because I thought it had a liberal algorithm, but I it's good to know thanks for the link. I actually bought it because it was a cheap air computer. I have 2 of them one is about 5 years older then the one I just got which is 2 years old. The older one was more conservative then the newer one it went into 1 minute deco on the 2nd dive, but it was hanging on a console and my newer one was on my wrist which read 10 minutes left until NDL while the older on on the console read 0 minutes left and went into 1 minute deco at 10 feet. If you speak to divers who have been though DCS they mostly will tell you it happened well with in NDL and no rules were broken so tables and computers are based on rules for most but not all divers as new divers hit the water every year you will see DCS keep going up in numbers. PFO is another issue but even if you have it getting it fixed isn't that easy, or may not be worth getting it fixed. I really doubt I was bent the day after I got out of the water I would have noticed something I felt great all that day. I think I just hadn't off gassed it all and the rapid ascent in the plane caused it.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

If you speak to divers who have been though DCS they mostly will tell you it happened well with in NDL and no rules were broken

I'm surprised and a bit taken aback to read that. That's scary. I wouldn't feel that way if it were "just" some smaller percentage of DCS hits were "unexplained," because it's not a black & white thing, and there are variations in individual physiology. It makes sense to me that there would always be some people/at some times who would be on one end of the spectrum

But... most cases of DCS being within NDL and no "rules" broken? Is that actually true?

 

[redacted]

If you are doing your diving well within normal limits and taking "unexplained" hits, it may be time to go back to snorkeling (or golf). I'm sure there is some super conservative diving one can do but when your limits are unknown, it may just not be worth it.

 

[Blastman4444]

I'm surprised and a bit taken aback to read that. That's scary. I wouldn't feel that way if it were "just" some smaller percentage of DCS hits were "unexplained," because it's not a black & white thing, and there are variations in individual physiology. It makes sense to me that there would always be some people/at some times who would be on one end of the spectrum

But... most cases of DCS being within NDL and no "rules" broken? Is that actually true?

DCS hits compared to the number of dives going on is still probably .001% it's not common DAN said they track about 1000 cases a year. Out of the 7-8 people I have emailed with or PMed with 6 said they were diving safe profiles the same profile as a group that didn't get hit, and they took a hit like mine a lighter hit got treatment as fast as they could and turned out okay for them. If you get treatment fast it usually turns out okay until someone develops a way to measure the nitrogen in your body how does anyone really know. It's not black and white there is no line in the sand everyone can point to and say, "Yep that guy crossed it". It's a gray line with some margin to it some guys push it to he line and over many time and nothing happens. Maybe I did push a little too far that day and for me I crossed my line I'm glad I know my line now I can stay well away from it. I'm going to get tested for PFO just to know I doubt I would get it fixed just to dive.