I think WetSuits are Safer and Better than Dry suits for the vast majority of divers

[Diver0001]

Over thinking or monetization? Sometimes it's difficult to distinguish between the two nowadays.

Name one company in this world who look at a market and see a need for a product and thinks, "we shouldn't do it because we might profit from it and people will get upset at us".

Just one.

I don't think that the commercialization of training necessarily affects people adversely. Dry suit training is a good example. When I got my first drysuit there wasn't a specialty for it, and you read above the quality of the training I got. I also paid nothing for it.

These days students pay for a drysuit course or it gets thrown in to sweeten the pot if they buy a drysuit. The training is professionalized, the students, who create the root source of demand, are able to buy a product that they obviously wanted (or it wouldn't exist!) and both PADI and the instructor get something out of it too.

That's free market economics working exactly the way it should.

This whole "PADI is evil because they make a profit on training" line of thinking is completely foreign to me. They saw a niche and created a product, people want the product and buy it, they profit from that.... how amazingly sinister.....

People who really feel like there is something wrong with that should take a good look around themselves and look at all the products they chose to buy because they wanted it. PADI isn't forcing anyone to take a drysuit specialty. People choose to buy it because it's a product that they feel will benefit them in some way. There are still places for the hard-core anti-capitalists on this planet where there is a command economy and the government tells you when and how much of a product you are required/allowed to buy, but most of those places are not places you would want to live.

Frankly, I don't see PADI as being a greedy company at all. Yes, some of their decisions are crafted to grow a market bigger (what company doesn't do that?) but on the whole I think divers benefit enormously from the availability of professional training..... (and now one or two people are going to get set off by that and post something like "PADI is everything but professional, blah-blah-blah-hate-hate-hate..." but we've heard it all before. Meanwhile millions of divers have been trained and are enjoying this sport immensely every day.

Just something to think about.

R..

---------- Post added November 14th, 2013 at 03:45 PM ----------

You know what is so hard for me to understand, is the reluctance of so many here on SB to SEE the relevance of Drag and efficient propulsion to achieving either better adventures or more safety.

Actually, Dan, what I saw in your posts was *your* reluctance to understand that the *team* has to adjust to accommodate the gear choices of all of its members. You're calling it a "safety" issue, but what I'm hearing you say is that you hate it when your buddies can't keep up to you when you're swimming around a mile a minute.

Do gear choices create limitations? Yes, of course they do. Drag is real, it's a limitation and the speed at which you can swim should be considered in the planning of a dive.

Can you, and *should* you accommodate for the limitations of gear choices in your planning and your team protocols? Most people would find the answer obvious. In your case it seems to make you think that everyone who can't swim around at your top speed is somehow being unsafe. Personally I find that weird, but having known you and having listened to your favorite "soap box" arguments for 12-odd years, it makes me pity you a little but it doesn't surprise me anymore.

R..

 

[danvolker]

How many mls do these freedive wetsuits come in? The ones I've seen look very thin. I get cold easily, especially now that I have the bone disease. I'm strong and flexible if warm,stiff and weak if cold. Not thinking that would work for me.
I'm wearing 1.5 ml in the swimming pool when everyone else is in a swimsuit. Of course, everyone else is complaining about the cold,they just don't know what to do about it.
Personally, While I love diving wet,I've found my tolerance for cold has gone way down. I think the days of 3 mls are nearly gone for me,except in the lake when its 88 deg. Otherwise, I'm going to be like TSandM for the most part. I just love diving dry. I may end up getting a used 30/30 as a back/up for tropical diving, sing my DC seems like overkill at times.

• H.Dessault Women's Duo Wetsuit - Spearfishing World 3.5 and 5 mil ( note freedive suits are typically much warmer than scuba suits, due to the differences in the rubber and a few other factors)
• Sporasub Yamamoto Wetsuit 5 mil ( best rubber in this brand)
• Apnea Competition Pro
• WETSUITS - SMOOTH SKIN - OPEN CELL-SINGE LINED SUITS - HAWK CELL ????? - HAWK CELL Wetsuit - Apnea 3 mil to 7 mil

Because these are smooth on the outside, when you get back on the boat on surface interval, the slick/smooth exterior dries rapidly( unlike scuba wetsuits), and without the constant evaporation, these suits stay much warmer on the surface.....

---------- Post added November 14th, 2013 at 11:12 AM ----------

---------- Post added November 14th, 2013 at 03:45 PM ----------



Actually, Dan, what I saw in your posts was *your* reluctance to understand that the *team* has to adjust to accommodate the gear choices of all of its members. You're calling it a "safety" issue, but what I'm hearing you say is that you hate it when your buddies can't keep up to you when you're swimming around a mile a minute.

Do gear choices create limitations? Yes, of course they do. Drag is real, it's a limitation and the speed at which you can swim should be considered in the planning of a dive.

Can you, and *should* you accommodate for the limitations of gear choices in your planning and your team protocols? Most people would find the answer obvious. In your case it seems to make you think that everyone who can't swim around at your top speed is somehow being unsafe. Personally I find that weird, but having known you and having listened to your favorite "soap box" arguments for 12-odd years, it makes me pity you a little but it doesn't surprise me anymore.

R..

While I don't like your take on this...you are getting closer I think to what may be at issue to many in this argument..... Team is a very important concept....the way I deal with this, is that I am very picky about who I will buddy with....the majority of people I will not buddy with for one of my "fun dives" or important Video Missions ( filming a Goliath spawning, dolphins,etc)...Now if it is bringing a SB member around our reefs, or a friend, that is different--the "mission" is different..in that case, I go exactly the speed they want to go at, and as this was my expectation from the start, I am quite happy with this.

For me to see TEAM in my videography, in the GUE sense of TEAM, it would be a 3 or 4 man team....with Bill Mee buddied to Sandra...since he stays right with her, and I am always within 5 seconds away, but not always within 10 feet. For me to get my video subject, while Sandra is getting her still image subject, we need very different angles and movements..thus she has her own dedicated buddy, often with a 2nd buddy for Bill--since a photographer like Sandra really can't be considered anything but a dependent buddy( she will be concentrating on shooting, and not on her buddy(s)) I will do my stuff in the 5 second or occasionally 10 second range, as long as we are on shallow dives ( less than 90 feet)..Shallow is anything I can freedive without scuba. In all the time I have been diving, I have never had a situation where I can't be right next to my buddy the moment they need me....even when I am shooting, I am also scanning Sandra and Bill every few seconds....and I can always get to them in a heart beat....ON a tech dive, I can't operate this way....On the tech dive, I have to stay within 5 to 10 feet of any buddy I have, and there are no exceptions. To be on a tech dive with someone as a buddy, we would already have established that we both like the same cruising paces, and that we have complimentary "missions" on the tech dive, this making it easy to keep wanting to be where the other(s) are--not just responsibility to team, but by object of interests.


Diver0001....I tried hard NOT to make this thread about me.....Please re-read some of the posts....it was never about how fast I can go--it was always about how fast other divers could go if they used this concept of drag and efficiency....and for them to try these tests or demos....Those that don't like my posting style, and/or that can't separate me now from DIR in the 90's, may hear me say black, even when I say white.....I don't have a good way to deal with that.....

---------- Post added November 14th, 2013 at 11:20 AM ----------

Can you, and *should* you accommodate for the limitations of gear choices in your planning and your team protocols? Most people would find the answer obvious. In your case it seems to make you think that everyone who can't swim around at your top speed is somehow being unsafe. Personally I find that weird, but having known you and having listened to your favorite "soap box" arguments for 12-odd years, it makes me pity you a little but it doesn't surprise me anymore.

R..

It is hard to understand how you can be a moderator and make such an obnoxious and immature post.....There is no way you would speak like this in person, or the people around you would have knocked most of your teeth out long ago(*note...this is not about me....I will never be anywhere near you....I am suggesting the people directly around you in your own life--they would not allow you to speak this way to them).

The issue however.....I was posting about safety in the very common scenario where divers are dropped on a wreck, often with an anchor line, and the current is hard on them during the dive....this happens a lot. However, even though you hear people whining about this a lot...how they had to work so hard on the dive, and the fatigue on getting back to the boat--or not being able to get back to the boat.....my concept about drag is hugely relevant here--my drag solutions in this thread, would directly address these frequent problems, and the SAFETY of these divers in question, would be remarkably higher with the low drag gear on, the more propulsive fins, and they would feel far less exertion on the dive....but...you don't want to hear this, do you? You would much rather try to slant this as to seem like I was talking about me on one of these dives--which again, this was never about....

 

[drbill]

The only time I "dive dry" is when I'm watching my cable TV show or reading one of my newspaper columns. I greatly prefer a wetsuit when diving anywhere from SoCal (even in winter) to the tropics. Besides, when I dove my "dry" suit it was the wettest dive I've ever experienced (it was NOT a DUI). My Harvard professor dove Antarctica wet (13mm wetsuit) in 1957. However when I start thinking of diving that continent, I will certainly consider diving a dry suit!

 

[Diver0001]

Those that don't like my posting style, and/or that can't separate me now from DIR in the 90's, may hear me say black, even when I say white.....I don't have a good way to deal with that....

I pretty sure this was directed at me. Both myself and Dan are refugees from rec.scuba where the discussions about DIR in the mid-90's was anything other than civil. I fact, I think the only way to describe the DIR vs the world "war" is just like that, a "war" with trenches and mutual hate that went on for years. If you think discussions on scubaboard can get heated, you haven't seen how bad the internet can be. I literally got death threats mailed to my personal email address from someone on rec.scuba and it was someone who I thought would follow through if he could.

Frankly, Dan, having come from that background, you're one of the people who, despite the rhetoric, prompted me to learn more about DIR. The discussions were deeply disturbing and your own contribution to that was deeply frustrating, but you always struck me as someone whose passion could not be denied regardless of how misguided it seemed to me. Actually, in that way you haven't changed since 1995. You can still claim, after all these years that the moon is made of cheese and then deliver it in such a way that some people will believe you.

It is hard to understand how you can be a moderator and make such an obnoxious and immature post.....There is no way you would speak like this in person, or the people around you would have knocked most of your teeth out long ago(*note...this is not about me....I will never be anywhere near you....I am suggesting the people directly around you in your own life--they would not allow you to speak this way to them).

I should make clear that Dan isn't the one from rec.scuba who threatened my life but I think you can see the vestiges of that kind of internet culture.

I know you're not used to me playing the man, but in this case it wasn't something contrived to support any argument I was making, which is so often the case when you do it. I really do sincerely pity you in some ways. You've always been someone who I thought had enormous potential but who has failed, over decades of trying, to live up to it in my opinion. It's only my opinion though and I would advise you to not lose any sleep about it.

The issue however.....I was posting about safety in the very common scenario where divers are dropped on a wreck, often with an anchor line, and the current is hard on them during the dive....this happens a lot. However, even though you hear people whining about this a lot...how they had to work so hard on the dive, and the fatigue on getting back to the boat--or not being able to get back to the boat.....my concept about drag is hugely relevant here--my drag solutions in this thread, would directly address these frequent problems, and the SAFETY of these divers in question, would be remarkably higher with the low drag gear on, the more propulsive fins, and they would feel far less exertion on the dive....but...you don't want to hear this, do you? You would much rather try to slant this as to seem like I was talking about me on one of these dives--which again, this was never about....

Well... as in all things in diving, one can *always* think of some scenario where the diver may have been better off making other choices. No matter what, a committed spin doctor can turn any statement into whatever they want to say. At this point I don't think it even matters. Most of the people who could have gotten something from this thread ploinked it long ago.

R..

 

[flots am]

It is hard to understand how you can be a moderator and make such an obnoxious and immature post.....There is no way you would speak like this in person, or the people around you would have knocked most of your teeth out long ago(*note...this is not about me....I will never be anywhere near you....I am suggesting the people directly around you in your own life--they would not allow you to speak this way to them).

"Moderator" is roughly equivalent to fight-referee and floor-cleaner at a diapers-optional preschool.

You should be grateful for anybody who is willing to do it for more than a couple of days, since doing nothing makes people angry and would eventually destroy the board, and doing something makes different people angry and doing the wrong thing (and sometimes the right thing) makes nearly everybody angry.

Your ability to post and even to have this thread and not endure personal threats and a 90%+ spam rate, is directly attributable to the mods.

If you're not happy with moderators, switch to usenet for a while and this place will start to look like Disney World.

flots.

 

[danvolker]

Let's try another approach that may do a much better job of explaining my concept of easier, more serene, lower exertion, more ground covered with less effort...

Watch this
[video]http://content.bitsontherun.com/previews/Snp3jfQ3-C3PNGnB0[/video]
And please IGNORE the DIVER whenever he is swimming fast--which was done only to show this is an "option" available...instead, look at all the kick and long glides, done by both the freediver and the scuba diver wearing the wing fin--both have many sections in the 5 minute video where they are going slow, and you see the effect of very low drag in the exposure suit--and even bp/wing scuba, and how far a diver can glide...how little effort they need to go along way--how little air this uses...and how much safer you are when it is this much easier to get around.....
There are some freediving fins that allow almost this amount of gliding also....I know the monofin concept is not going to be good for most scuba divers, because we really do need to be able to do helicopter turns and reverse kicks, and all the variations of these we use....the freedive fins can allow this....but the real issue here is look at the lack of drag--and see how far the glide lasts...then YOU try this with a dry suit!!!!

 

[Diver0001]

Yes, it's true.... When you wear a 3 or 5mm shorty you generate less drag than a diver in a drysuit.

Shocking.

I would fully have expected a diver in a drysuit and maybe twin tanks, a stage, light and a go-pro for the "selfies" to look exactly like that. In fact, if a diver in a drysuit twin tanks, a stage, light and a go-pro for the "selfies" *doesn't* look like that then they must be a threat to themselves and their buddies.

... cool flipper by the way. Not very practical though. You can see him steering with his hands.... that's obviously going to kill him!

R..

 

[tridacna]

I know the monofin concept is not going to be good for most scuba divers, because we really do need to be able to do helicopter turns and reverse kicks, and all the variations of these we use....the freedive fins can allow this....

Ping! We're into Volker fin debates! Took 136 posts but we're here at last. We all knew that this was never really about drysuits...eh?

 

[mruseless]

While a drysuit will increase swimming resistance in current, wouldn't that be at least partially balanced by the increased survivability if one is lost (swept away from the boat) in said current? If I had to spend 8 hours in the water waiting to be found, I'd much rather be dry. Not that this is a huge concern, but something to ponder.

 

[danvolker]

While a drysuit will increase swimming resistance in current, wouldn't that be at least partially balanced by the increased survivability if one is lost (swept away from the boat) in said current? If I had to spend 8 hours in the water waiting to be found, I'd much rather be dry. Not that this is a huge concern, but something to ponder.

I love this question!!! And if you are a drysuit diver, or would be considering becoming one...this is something to ponder....With the pondering of this, there is the flip side....if this same person pondering, chose the path of slick wetsuit, slick bp/wing, and freedive fins...there would be practically no way they could imagine being swept away....they would be having the easiest time of any in the group getting around, and it would be very hard for them to get into trouble that had not already claimed all the other divers....
The drysuit diver must be aware of the severe limitations they would have in any current, if most of the other divers are in wetsuits....they would be the ones being swept away, while the wetsuit divers would be wondering why they are blowing away. If all divers are in dry suits, then the boat would need to be planning for all to be similarly impaired, and so the boat would be planning for the needs of the dry suit diver...In Florida, where many shops do want to sell a wetsuit diver into a drysuit in the next 2 months.....the norm for the masses, will still be wetsuits, so all the more danger to the divers challenged by high drag, to handle the dive as easily as the wetsuit divers would...this is even more true in Fort Lauderdale or Miami, where most boats will anchor, and where mild currents do exist...mild for wetsuit divers, but sometimes getting to be a little tough on wetsuit divers, meaning a huge problem for the dry suited.

Thanks again for this question showcasing the underlying considerations a dry suit or wet suit diver should be thinking about.

---------- Post added November 14th, 2013 at 02:01 PM ----------

Ping! We're into Volker fin debates! Took 136 posts but we're here at last. We all knew that this was never really about drysuits...eh?

Close
This is about drag.....and the fins that allow easy fast speed, show/compare high drag and low drag differences in exposure suits or BC's, much more obviously than do slow fins like splits....And thanks again for this opportunity !!!