I think WetSuits are Safer and Better than Dry suits for the vast majority of divers

[danvolker]

Theres a golden rule in communication..
"You dont say what you think you say, you say what the recipient percieve"...

And its pretty clear to ne what the "vast majority" percieve in this case..

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---------- Post added November 14th, 2013 at 08:38 PM ----------

Oh and nobody here claims there is NO more drag from a drysuit setup, we just strongly disagree that it makes a drysuit less safe, less good or less enjoyable.. this never was a streamlining thread to begin with, it was a claim that drysuits are a waste of time and money..

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If you look at the headline of the thread...or the first two sentences...here they are --> In regards to safety in semi tropical to tropical waters---say 68 degrees to 80 degree water, it would be my contention that wetsuits are far better and safer than are drysuits for recreational divers.

Better and safer because they create far less drag, allowing the diver much better ability to propel themselves and to be as functional in the water as the conditions dictate( whereas the drysuit compromises propulsion to such a degree as to be dangerous in all but still water conditions).


No mention of time and money....it was primarily about streamlining..... You and a few other are having me wondering about how I can express myself and have an expectation of being understood.

 

[Diver0001]

If you look at the headline of the thread...or the first two sentences...here they are --> In regards to safety in semi tropical to tropical waters---say 68 degrees to 80 degree water, it would be my contention that wetsuits are far better and safer than are drysuits for recreational divers.

Translation... "recreational divers suck so bad that they couldn't possibly dive safely in a drysuit"

Better and safer because they create far less drag, allowing the diver much better ability to propel themselves and to be as functional in the water as the conditions dictate( whereas the drysuit compromises propulsion to such a degree as to be dangerous in all but still water conditions).

Translation... "I hate it when my buddies fall behind and I don't feel like waiting for them". (based upon subsequent discussion)

No mention of time and money....it was primarily about streamlining..... You and a few other are having me wondering about how I can express myself and have an expectation of being understood.

True, you only played the "money" card when you started to run out of other arguments.

R..

 

[danvolker]

Translation... "recreational divers suck so bad that they couldn't possibly dive safely in a drysuit"



Translation... "I hate it when my buddies fall behind and I don't feel like waiting for them". (based upon subsequent discussion)



True, you only played the "money" card when you started to run out of other arguments.

R..

This is all your invention.
I have buddies I dive with all the time. They do go at the pace I like, with the exception of my wife if she wants to shoot macro--if she does, I arrange for a buddy to be with her, and a different one with me.

When Sandra is shooting wide angle, she stays with me or Bill, or anyone else we dive with easily, right up until she stops to shoot an octopus or something that takes set up...I have no problem with these stops, nor does Bill or our other buddies.

Where you invented this junk about me leaving my buddies is kind of troubling...Do you think it is OK for you to suggest blatant lies about me like this?
What I did say many times, is that I am picky about who I will buddy with...they have to enjoy similar "mission oriented diving" with me--diving related to what a videographer would like to see..or a spearfisherman or hunter, for that matter.

I have been on many charters and jumped in with a large 9 person or so group...some buddy teams not related to us, will often start to follow--which is fine, but I will not swim at their speed...I swim at the speed of my group-my buddies--of our collective desire ( not my own speed).

I don't let people buddied to me or dependent on me fall behind...the are kept to the side as much as possible, and if they get a body length behind, I will glide till they get even with me.
Again, you are making stuff up.....Have I ever invented stories about what you do with your buddies? The translation is just malfeasance.

As to "other arguements".....no worries there.... If I wanted to, there would be no end in sight

 

[Dr. Lecter]

I have no idea why anyone continues to engage with Dan. While I understand why he chooses to make the kind way-out-there of posts he does, it's just so fatiguing for so little actual discourse/information.

 

[Hickdive]

...

This whole "PADI is evil because they make a profit on training" line of thinking is completely foreign to me. ...

As it is to me - why and how you would or could take that interpretation from what I wrote or even bring PADI into the matter is beyond me.

 

[Diver0001]

This is all your invention.

Normally if I think someone misunderstands me then I think *I* have failed to communicate my meaning well enough, not that *they* have failed to receive it.... That's probably a good tip for you to remember

Where you invented this junk about me leaving my buddies is kind of troubling...

That's right from the comment you made about if your "evil" twin were in a drysuit that you would leave him behind. Read back. Your words, not mine. Sorry you feel misunderstood but if you don't want people to take you on your word then you should try to say what you really mean.

What I did say many times, is that I am picky about who I will buddy with...

Actually, with all due respect, I think your buddies should be more picky, but that's just my opinion based on your posting.

If I wanted to, there would be no end in sight

When did that ever stop you

R..

---------- Post added November 14th, 2013 at 09:37 PM ----------

As it is to me - why and how you would or could take that interpretation from what I wrote or even bring PADI into the matter is beyond me.

Sorry about that. I extrapolated from the comment you made about "monetizing" training to the usual rants people have about how PADI is somehow screwing us all because they profit from selling training.

If that's not what you meant then I apologize.

R..

 

[nimoh]

Cmon man...R.E.A.D.....Read what I write.....I said "watch" the guy in the slick gear on the video....THEN, TRY the same kick and glide with a drysuit and your fins....see the bottom move under the diver(s) in the video...See the bottom under you....have a friend see both the video and YOU.....
I am not asking you to buy anything.....I am expecting you to read most of the words in a couple of sentences.

p.s.
And no, you are correct about reverse kicks....Jets are hands down better at reverse kicks than freedive fins....You can reverse in DiveR freedive fins, but it is much more effort on your shin muscles due to the leverage of the long blades, and it is not easy to sustain for a long time--like if you swam into a pipe after a big fish, and then had to back out because of the big nurseshark that wanted to get out and could not get past you... Here I would have preferred the Excellerating Force Fins!!!
Helicopters are easy enough with freedive fins, if not easier, because one thrust blasts you much further, so you can spin quick and easy..just slightly different technique.

---------- Post added November 14th, 2013 at 03:19 PM ----------

See, this is part of the problem...most of the people who don't like what THEY THINK I wrote, are thinking I wrote something I did not...EXACTLY like this example above!!!!!!

sorry, you're right, you didn't ask me to buy any fins, you asked me to watch a video of a guy in a monofin and a wetsuit and compare it to myself in a drysuit and jet fins with the difference being attributed to the wetsuit. I will admit, I am having trouble keeping up with this thread since it seems to be jumping around a lot.

As for the comparison, I already know that a wetsuit is more streamlined, I am just not convinced that it is to the point of being dangerous, and yes I remember that you were not speaking of me specifically, but of the majority of tropical recreational divers diving in high current non-drift dives.

I have a pretty fair glide with my jet fin frog kick, and although not quite as long as the guy in the video, the difference is not extreme.

 

[danvolker]

That's right from the comment you made about if your "evil" twin were in a drysuit that you would leave him behind. Read back. Your words, not mine. Sorry you feel misunderstood but if you don't want people to take you on your word then you should try to say what you really mean.

You are really going to go with this....you really thought I have an evil twin that I sometimes buddy with, and willfully leave behind? I know you are alot smarter than this, and again we have an invention borne out of purposeful malfeasance. If that's who you want to be, fine.

Actually, with all due respect, I think your buddies should be more picky, but that's just my opinion based on your posting.

Which of course, is just you being snotty. And this reinforces my mental image of you as either someone that is missing lots of teeth from deserved beatings from the people around you in the Netherlands--if in fact you talk like this in person....OR, you are one of those "meek in-person" types that gets to feel like a big tough brawler on the Internet...either way, it's not a pretty picture....You might want to consider this yourself.

---------- Post added November 14th, 2013 at 04:58 PM ----------

sorry, you're right, you didn't ask me to buy any fins, you asked me to watch a video of a guy in a monofin and a wetsuit and compare it to myself in a drysuit and jet fins with the difference being attributed to the wetsuit. I will admit, I am having trouble keeping up with this thread since it seems to be jumping around a lot.

As for the comparison, I already know that a wetsuit is more streamlined, I am just not convinced that it is to the point of being dangerous, and yes I remember that you were not speaking of me specifically, but of the majority of tropical recreational divers diving in high current non-drift dives.

I have a pretty fair glide with my jet fin frog kick, and although not quite as long as the guy in the video, the difference is not extreme.

Nimoh,
Thank you very much for the consideration of this.
Just know that we did this video in a large group of recreational divers --all fairly high drag wetsuits versus the somewhat slick wetsuit of the wing wearing scuba diver.....the glides were very different between him--time between kicks and distance covered, and these high drag wetsuit divers.....and of course I have been with many of my dry suit wearing friends.....and worn dry suits myself....I know how far I can glide like this, or even how far a GUE instructor can glide with het fins and a dry suit....it is not a close comparison...if it was, I would not have droned on so long with this thread.

But again, thanks for the re-read.

 

[TSandM]

Dan, I don't think ANYBODY is going to argue with you that a laminate dry suit is less streamlined than a wetsuit is. It's fairly obvious from inspection.

Where the argument comes in is in the magnitude of the difference, and the relevance of it. You have said that a dry suit increases drag to the point where it is dangerous to dive one. This is ONLY true if you feel that there are frequent situations where safety requires swimming very fast, or swimming INTO strong current. In fact, as we were discussing with our open water students in class last night, scuba divers are taught NOT to swim into heavy current. It's very clearly discouraged. Wetsuit or dry suit, we are not streamlined enough to do it very well or for very long.

You started the thread talking about low-dive-number recreational divers who can't manage buoyancy in a dry suit. Then it morphed into "you can't swim fast enough in a dry suit". Then it became, "You're not efficient enough in a dry suit."

You don't like dry suits. We get it. The imperatives for a lot of divers are not yours. I dove a dry suit in West Palm very happily (at least, up until I tore it open). I saw no safety issues in using a dry suit. Neither did the majority of the people on the boat, all of whom were diving dry.

Dry suits complicate buoyancy control for inexperienced divers. That is true. Most of whom would never, in a million years, consider diving a dry suit in Florida.

 

[Diver0001]

You are really going to go with this....you really thought I have an evil twin that I sometimes buddy with, and willfully leave behind? I know you are alot smarter than this, and again we have an invention borne out of purposeful malfeasance. If that's who you want to be, fine.

You said it, Dan, not me. If you didn't want us to believe it then why would you say it?

Feel free to back-peddle if you want but don't blame anyone else for what you said.

Which of course, is just you being snotty. And this reinforces my mental image of you as either someone that is missing lots of teeth from deserved beatings from the people around you in the Netherlands--if in fact you talk like this in person....OR, you are one of those "meek in-person" types that gets to feel like a big tough brawler on the Internet...either way, it's not a pretty picture....You might want to consider this yourself

Wow... that's two thinly veiled threats in one thread. You're outdoing yourself, Dan. That's quite an accomplishment.

And people reading this are supposed to think that I'm the one with something to consider? I'll admit, I have some things in my life that I should consider (who doesn't?) but giving you some push-back on your crap isn't one of them.

I think you've established your reputation and exposed your true personality perfectly now. I'm going to say "mission accomplished".

My only regret is that it took 160 posts and that the people who *should* know what you're like aren't even reading this thread anymore.

R..