I got bent without reason

[Bubbletrubble]

I'm not a doctor either, but my understanding is that doppler tests only show bubbles in the blood. Doppler tests do not show someone is or is not bent. Bubbles causing DCS are not necessarily in the blood, but can be in any tissue. Bubbles in the blood do not necessarily indicate DCS.

Do we have a doctor monitoring this thread who might be able to elaborate?

I'm not a doctor...yet. Walter's statements are right on the money with respect to the DCS literature. Precordial Doppler studies detect the presence of venous gas emboli. Those bubbles ain't pathognomonic for DCS. If you were to ask whether increased bubble "load" is correlated with the clinical severity of certain types of DCS...then that's another question entirely.

Do you have any specific questions, Carrie?

 

[Saturation]

I'm not a doctor...yet. Walter's statements are right on the money with respect to the DCS literature. Precordial Doppler studies detect the presence of venous gas emboli. Those bubbles ain't pathognomonic for DCS. If you were to ask whether increased bubble "load" is correlated with the clinical severity of certain types of DCS...then that's another question entirely.

Do you have any specific questions, Carrie?

That is quite correct however, as readers have surmised there is no pathognomonic or gold standard test for DCS when its needed urgently: when symptoms or signs are developing and one needs to decide on urgent treatment.

Doppler testing is used as a proxy for DCS because its more reproducible and its relationship to the disease well established. This is how the PADI table and the DCIEM tables were developed, they used doppler results rather than a clinical sign or symptom as an end point.

The use of doppler testing while diving is quite rare, and I am one of its advocates. It isn't the 'silver bullet' but if you feel strange and have bubbles, the simple tool gives objective evidence to help decide what ails you right at the dive site, rather than rely on purely subjective findings that can be mistaken for many other maladies, such as a pulled muscle or nerve pinch.

I've used it on open water and cave technical level dives and so far, have not had a patient who manifested clear symptoms of DCS that did not bubble severely. Likewise, I have had divers who bubbled, but a lesser grade, after dives who had no symptoms. Our protocol is to leave dives with zero bubbles post dive up to 3 hours before a next dive, and six hours after the last dive, and use those findings to set 'conservatism' on schedules or computers.

 

[Belmont]

Thanks for posting. It is probably a worthwhile read, but I don't have the time or patience to labor through it right now. If somebody has the time to edit it, I'd appreciate it.

Have you tried learning speedreading!!

 

[Thalassamania]

Doppler detected bubbles are not indicative of being bent, though (at least as I understand it) being bent usually does mean that Doppler delectable bubbles are present.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

That is quite correct however, as readers have surmised there is no pathognomonic or gold standard test for DCS when its needed urgently: when symptoms or signs are developing and one needs to decide on urgent treatment.

Doppler testing is used as a proxy for DCS because its more reproducible and its relationship to the disease well established. This is how the PADI table and the DCIEM tables were developed, they used doppler results rather than a clinical sign or symptom as an end point.

The use of doppler testing while diving is quite rare, and I am one of its advocates. It isn't the 'silver bullet' but if you feel strange and have bubbles, the simple tool gives objective evidence to help decide what ails you right at the dive site, rather than rely on purely subjective findings that can be mistaken for many other maladies, such as a pulled muscle or nerve pinch.

I've used it on open water and cave technical level dives and so far, have not had a patient who manifested clear symptoms of DCS that did not bubble severely. Likewise, I have had divers who bubbled, but a lesser grade, after dives who had no symptoms. Our protocol is to leave dives with zero bubbles post dive up to 3 hours before a next dive, and six hours after the last dive, and use those findings to set 'conservatism' on schedules or computers.

Marvin presents fascinating seminars on topics such as this at Beneath The Sea. In fact, the only compelling reason that I usuallly find to attend is to listen to his lectures.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

@Saturation: Thanks for your post. Based on your experience, you seem to be implying that the presence of Doppler recorded bubbles are sensitive but not specific for DCS. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You advocate using on-site Doppler studies to gather "objective" evidence in determining whether to seek treatment. If the test is sensitive, then I can definitely see a benefit to ruling out DCS (decide not to seek treatment). If the test isn't very specific, however, then it's probably not that useful for confirming the diagnosis of DCS -- which is how I interpreted that HowardE proposed to use bubble test results in Post #67 of this thread. A subtle point but worth mentioning.

 

[Scott L]

Have you tried learning speedreading!!

Not before charm school...

 

[K_girl]

I am 24 years old I am not going to say I am in great shap but I am in pretty good shape. I was diving a Sunto vyper air computer which I think and have also been told is a very conservative computer.

I can personally testify that the Suunto Vyper is a very conservative computer. I have one, and on two occasions, while diving with groups of divers, just following along with everyone else, my computer went into deco and I had to stay below 10 feet or it would error out. The last time was in Panama City, diving with a group of Scubaboarders last October. Three of us - our computers went into deco and we were diving Nitrox - and yes, my computer was properly set for Nitrox on both dives - and it was on the least conservative setting. My b/f also has this computer and he also experienced a deco hit on this computer.

So the fact that you experienced a DCS incident while diving this highly conservative computer would be unnerving. I was going to suggest that you dive a more conservative computer until I saw this post. However, look at the manual, there are several levels that you can set on this computer. You might want to set it to the most conservative level.

 

[amnbowser]

I am going to look in to that computer issue about it being on the most conservative setting. I honestly can't tell if if is or not. I think I am going to go back to the doctor and be checked out again. Of course before I start diving I will be going back to get the all clear. I have 60days to wait is what I was told. I think I will just wait till march honestly. I love to fish and hell there is no reason to push it. I will just put some more rods and takle on the boat. I really appreciate everyones input. The diving community is the most diversed willing to help anyone sport I have ever been around and that is awesome. I will be back in the water though and this time with a little bit of a new attitude. Of coures I have always had respect for the sport but anyone who has ever gone through what I just went through will look at it slightly different. As far as the question about my knee ever being hurt before I have never had any trouble in this knee EVER. I actually thought about that and was like no I don't ever recall having a problem. I guess it is probablly good cause I probablly would have just chalked the pain up to that. I think that is why it is so important to go to the doctor no matter what if something is hurting after you dive. I figure from now on I will let the Doc make the decision that is what they get paid the big bucks for cause I know I sure don't.

 

[Scott L]

I will say that it may be lack of water. I usally buy two of the big aquifina I think is how you spell it bottled waters and a couple of gatorades before I go out and drink them. I did drink on saturday but I now that I think about if I only drank one gatorade and one whole bottle of water on sunday. Which is a little less then normal. My question which is maybe a stupid one. Can wearing a thicker wetsuit make a difference? I honestly don't know I know that nitrogen exits your body and I am assuming through your skin. I wore a hooded vest a 3 mil and a 1.5 mil on sunday which is more then I have ever wear.

I zipped through your first couple of posts again on this boring Wednesday night here in the sub-tropics and noticed several of your comments that were not addressed too much if at all. In that you seem to acknowledge a lack of hydration as compared to your normal practice coupled with greater protection in general with a thicker wetsuit in particular along with TSandM's suspicions that your knee issues coluld be mechanical in orgin I would not be too quick to consider yourself to be DCS prone....Perhaps someone else can suggest who in your area you could consult to analyze all the facts in their entitity in order to render a final opionion.....