I do not agree with, "Dive and Let Dive."

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BoltSnap

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I'm a Fish!
No, it was Rob. he needs to take the blame. :rolleyes:

Rob is Satan??


I knew there was something not right about him after he posted pictures of most tempting seafood dishes. He was tempting us to stray from the righteous on-topic path. Yep, he is SB satan.
 

Subcooled

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As a diving community, we do NOT want people diving dangerously,
We do not want people diving in a way that affects OUR diving negatively.
If an unknown person drowns, then your life is not affected, but if the dive site is closed as a result, then it is a different matter.
or in a way that is harmful to the environment.
A valid point as most of us dive because of the environment. See my text above.
That kind of diving is NOT acceptable! Sure, the diver who is choosing to dive (for example) solo (ADDED LATER FOR CLARITY: but is un trained and/or unequipped for it), or in a buddy pair but refusing to have an alternate 2nd stage, or not mindful of NDLs or their SPG, or deeper than their MOD.... that diver MAY be endangering just themselves, but it might also be endangering their buddy, or those around them should they have (for example) an OOA issue.
Endangering the buddy is probably true. See my "OUR diving" comment.
The diving photographer who "just wants decent picture of the seahorse" but is willing to damage a gorgonian to do it...that is not acceptable.
True.
How can we do better? Do we need a handsign (not the finger) for "You are destroying the environment"?
Point at the diver, then show the "look" sign and point at the environment. Give the problem sign.
If this does not work, then give the mid finger and point at the environtment again.
See, we already have a vocabulary for this.
If all this fails, cursing through the reg is an option.
tell me why D&LD is the right answer
Have you ever met an uninformed know-it-all type?
- You would swiftly revert to D&LD!
And if you meet an informed narcissist, then you'll revert twice as fast.
 

pauldw

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If an unknown person drowns, then your life is not affected, but if the dive site is closed as a result, then it is a different matter.

No man is an island,
Entire of itself;
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.

If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less,
As well as if a promontory were:
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were.

Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.

John Donne
 

SlugMug

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I just don't log dives
(I haven't caught up with 11 pages of replies yet)
Many of you will attack me and this post for being a busybody and interfering in their "God-given and Constitutionally-guaranteed" right to freedom to do whatever they want. Damn straight I am. Suck it up, get over it, and tell me why D&LD is the right answer to dangerous/damaging diving.
Whether I agree or disagree depends entirely on nuance and context.
  1. If someone is actually being dangerous to themselves, the environment, other divers, or the diveability of a site, I do think we all have the right (and perhaps some obligation) to call them out.
  2. If someone is diving a little differently, bending an "intro Open Water rule," or farting in a wetsuit without a Master Wetsuit Flattuance Certification .... maybe chill a little, ask questions, see if they're doing it safely, and then caution them if it seems dangerous or there's something they can do better.
  3. Giant middle finger to any diver who encourages another diver to be unsafe.
1) I've heard stories of plenty experienced divers dying in caves, lacking cave-dive training, resulting in the site site being permanently closed to divers. That's a good example about how being a danger to oneself, may also harm the dive community, and that's of course not getting into trauma of that diver's friends and family.

2) I fully understand the safety-guardrails of Open Water class rules. However, not everything needs a cert, or must follow every Open Water rule forever-and-ever. Many of these "rules" were learned the hard way, through deaths or wetsuit-pooping moments, but these "rules" and standards are often redundancy and over-simplification of topics too complex for a brand-new diver.

Most "rules" are about redundancy. Most fatal dive accidents tend to meet a "3 strikes, you're dead" criteria; where 3-or-more problems happened at once. Often 1-2 were the result of divers intentionally ignoring standards for their current level of training, equipment, and experience.

"Always dive with a buddy," is simple redundancy and easy to explain for relatively new divers. A solo-diver may technically be breaking that rule, but with proper training, equipment, skills, experience, and attentiveness may be several times safer than an average insta-buddy pair. Metaphorically; our a solo-diver gets 1-strike, but with redundancy and skills returns back to zero-strikes.

When it comes to non-standard equipment configurations; I don't see a big deal, so long as you're doing it safe, have redundancy, know what you're doing, and when appropriate have associated skills. (It also doesn't hurt to ask for a 2nd opinion on ScubaBoard) Just because someone moved a d-ring, or tried slinging a pony-bottle a slightly different way isn't something to get worked up about. Where did sidemount, and a lot of other scuba-innovations come from? People innovating and experimenting. The technology of Scuba only moves forward with people trying new and creative things.

3) Whenever I hear stories of 2-divers dying; there's a STRONG probability that one diver heavily influenced the death of the other. Perhaps the buddy encouraged dangerous behavior, egged them on, panicked, used both divers air, etc. While I'm not attacking buddy-diving itself, I will note there's a legit issue of a "Buddy Hazard" that divers should be aware of. Regardless of who is liable in court, you the diver should always act as if you are 100.0% responsible for your own safety.
 

brsnow

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It is best to be careful and tactful when advising strangers. This is a valuable life lesson.
 

Cthippo

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Master Wetsuit Flattuance Certification
Can we get this on one of those stupid little rocker patches people wear on their wetsuits to say they have made 25 dives?
 

Belzelbub

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Can we get this on one of those stupid little rocker patches people wear on their wetsuits to say they have made 25 dives?
I had to look that up. I can't believe that is actually a thing that people buy.

There are companies that will make custom patches, so you could get Master Wetsuit Flatulence on one.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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