How to safely ascend with Spare Air

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If it is true (which now I think it is) then you really don't have much air left after the tank go empty!! My original assumption was somehow a continous system of air from the 3000 psi to the air in the lung. But now, I can see that to keep constant pressure in the low pressure hose, the lung pressure wouldn't make a difference.

I to say it, you are brighter than me, Gator....
 
OneBrightGator:
A 1st stage only works when the pressure in the tank is at or above the IP, once the pressure in the tank falls below that, you've "emptied" the tank. It is a rigid container, not effected by the surrounding pressure. As you rise in the water column, the pressure on the hoses is reduced, since a second stage works on a pressure difference between the surrounding pressure and the internal pressure so you can get more air out of the flexible hoses. You're thinking in volume, you should be thinking in pressure.
.

Yes and NO. With a downstream first, the 1st stage will "stop operating" when tank pressure falls below below IP plus ambient pressure minus one atm. And its failure mode is open. So, if I started with IP set at 135 (120 plus ambient), then at 4 atm the first stage will stop operating at 180 psi but will continue to deliver gas to the 2nd stage until pressure falls to about 60 psi or ambient pressure. As you ascend, the portion of that 60 psi that is in excess of ambient will also become available. Taint much, but taint empty - in round numbers, of course.
 
OneBrightGator:
A 1st stage only works when the pressure in the tank is at or above the IP, once the pressure in the tank falls below that, you've "emptied" the tank. It is a rigid container, not effected by the surrounding pressure. As you rise in the water column, the pressure on the hoses is reduced, since a second stage works on a pressure difference between the surrounding pressure and the internal pressure so you can get more air out of the flexible hoses. You're thinking in volume, you should be thinking in pressure.

We're into illogical semantics here, since we're arguing points made by the original poster. If you are allowing air to flow out, then you are not holding your breath. My point was, if you do not allow air out of your airway, you will embolize.
Don't forget that the IP, while it is constant relative to ambient pressure, it DOES change with depth. This is true for both upstream and downstream 1sts. You can continue to believe that the additional gas available to you is solely from the LP hose, but you are wrong.

It looks like we now agree on the fact that whether or not your airway is open is the important point, not whether or not you are breathing in and out. I obviously misinterpreted your earlier statement of " if you hold your breath, airway open or not, you will embolize".
 
I think this troll will take a break from inflamming more folks with comments. My wife is going to think I am cruising the net for a date.
 
fisherdvm:

I'm getting in late so forgive me if I'm repeating what was already said.....

Fisherdvm,

You're trying to logic out what you would do in a life or death emergency with an airsource that you realise is much to small to make the ascent. Judging from what you wrote I'm very worried about how this would turn out if it were for real.

If you recognise that spare air is useless and you are still hell-bent on using it (which is what it sounds like) then the root problem isn't how much air you have.

R..
 
Diver0001:
Fisherdvm,

You're trying to logic out what you would do in a life or death emergency with an airsource that you realise is much to small to make the ascent.
No...Its worse than that. He is trying to use logic about something he hasn't done for 10 yrs and only did 13 times..but....but...he is a engineer...medic...doctor..nuclear physicist..and so he thinks his logic will solve his problems...he just doesn't realize he brought a knife to a gun fight.
 
Ok..... i just read the rest of the thread and this is what I think:

Fisherdvm. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You say you're certified so the obvious conclusion is that you have either received very poor instruction as to theory or you were somewhere else with your head at the time. I think the best idea offered in the whole thread is for you to repeat the OW course. The gaps in your knowledge are serious and I am convinced that you will hurt yourself if you start diving again.

It also sounds like you have an old spare-air kicking around that you paid a lot of money for and you want to get a return on investment. Let me just say this. The biggest return on investment it will give you is to sell it on Ebay to someone who wants to use it to fill their DSMB.

Look, friend, many people make poor investments in gear (myself included) and sticking with the wrong solutions because it was expensive is the wrong attitude and it unnecessarily increases your risk.

This thread started with you asking about an OOA scenario using spare-air as your last hope for survival. I think a very experienced and calm diver would be able to make a direct ascent with a spare-air using the technique that someone described of treating it like an emergeny swimming ascent.

However, I'll be honest with you, from reading what you wrote on this thread, I honestly don't think you could make that ascent. I think you would either drown or embolize yourself.

Ask yourself this question *knowing* that spare-air is the wrong tool for you at this time: Is your life worth the price of a 10 year old spare-air? How would your wife and child answer that question? Is sticking with it because you paid good money for it still the right attitude given the answers one would expect?

And just one note about re-taking OW. Don't take a refresher course. You have the right to do that because you're certified but the theory review in the refresher course is too superficial for you at this time.

You've been confronted fairly strongly by a lot of good divers on this thread and I would take that to heart. They're not trying to be mean to you....nobody wants to see you get hurt.

R..
 
The troll is going to post some objective info on pulmonary embolism and DCS... Which confirms most of what we have discussed so far....

http://www.mtsinai.org/pulmonary/books/scuba/sectionj.htm
SCUBA DIVING EXPLAINED
Questions and Answers on
Physiology and Medical Aspects of Scuba Diving


WHY DOES PULMONARY BAROTRAUMA OCCUR?
There is no doubt that pulmonary barotrauma results from unequal air pressures across the lung. But why does it occur in some people and not others. Is it always from a breath-hold ascent?
Although breath-hold ascents account for some cases, there are also cases of barotrauma where the divers are certain they never held their breath. There are two explanations for this latter group. First, some divers probably have abnormal lungs and don't know it. Such changes as subpleural blebs and bullae (abnormal air pockets in the lungs) can often be demonstrated by chest CT scanning or even a plain chest x-ray in people with no respiratory symptoms or problems. After one diver suffered major barotrauma, a chest x-ray that was done before the dive was reviewed; it showed a large bulla, or abnormal air space with thin walls. Probably a certain percentage of people have such "weak lungs" (for want of a better term); these weak lungs may cause them no difficulty except when exposed to slight pressure changes that would not affect normal lungs.
Still, there are apparently other divers with completely normal lungs, who are confident breath was not held, yet who still suffered pulmonary barotrauma. These events are difficult to explain, and are fortunately rare (as is pulmonary barotrauma in general). Pulmonary barotrauma remains a definite, albeit small, risk of scuba diving.
Greatest Risk of Expansion Barotrauma is Near the Surface.
Barotrauma correlates with both increase in pressure in the lungs and 'over stretching' of the lung tissue. Experiments in dogs undergoing rapid ascent in a chamber showed that the lungs can withstand much higher pressures (before barotrauma occurs) if the chest cavity is bound and 'over stretching' is prevented (Schaefer 1958).
Although both over stretching of lung tissue and the pressure of expanding air are factors favoring lung trauma, pressure seems to be the major one. The pressure difference across the lungs (from inside to outside) that is the threshold for experimental barotrauma is about 80 mm Hg; this can occur with a breath-hold ascent from only four feet! The pressure difference (and risk of barotrauma) is obviously much greater with breath-hold from greater depths. During a breath-hold ascent from 33 feet the lung volume would try to double, almost guaranteeing barotrauma if breath were held at or near the diver's total lung capacity (Figure 3).


CONCERNING DIVE TABLES
Understand then, this is just a for the real world. What really happens is far more complex than any , which is one reason why any should be tested as widely as possible. By assuming uptake and excretion times for the various compartments, Haldane and others were able to arrive at tables for avoiding the bends which work in practice. And keep in mind that "work in practice" means most of the time, not all the time.
CONCERNING DCS
The mechanisms that cause DCS are not well understood, and bubble detection is simply a technique to monitor one aspect of the problem in a group of volunteer divers. That the tables work when tested on a small group does not, of course, guarantee that they will work for everyone, all the time. The population of recreational scuba divers is simply too diverse for any table to be tested for all the varying characteristics of people (age, weight, percentage of body fat, level of fitness) and dives (depth, time, rate of ascent, water temperature, visibility levels, etc.) that will encompass all situations.
Since different people can react differently to decompression, no table can be considered 100% safe. The standard dive table is thus only a conservative guide to safe diving for the whole population, and not a personal safety guide for each diver. It is a fact that some people diving within standard dive table limits have developed DCS.
There is no perfect table, nor will there ever be. Nonetheless, years of experience with available dive tables shows they are far better than nothing and, miraculously, seem to keep most divers from ever getting bent. Only a few hundred DCS cases are reported to DAN every year, which is a small number for such a potentially hazardous activity that is practiced millions of times a year. (See Section P.)
 
No, I don't have a spare air....

But I think this book (also available for browsing over the net) explains most of my questions posed here very well.

It appear that for the safety of ascend, a diver can not just trust his no decompression table, can not trust just keep opening his airway, but also need to control his ascend rate.

If your buddy is not near..... The darn 5 to 15 breath from your spare air could slow your ascend....

If you stab me one more time with the pitch fork, I am going to tell on your mom!!!
 
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https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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