How to earn a GUE Fundamentals Rec Pass

[rjack321]

Allegedly.
If a cave or tx instructor actually improves form an entry level class it tells me that the instructor stinks as a diver and instructor, and not that the class is amazing.
Can you name a single skill from fundies that wouldn't be easy to do for any competent cave or trimix diver, let alone instructor? If an instructor can't easily perform the very basics of scuba diving they shoudn't be training people.

And yet there are numerous even "big name" instructors who churn out terrible students, hand waving all over the place, swimming in circles, rototilling the bottom, terrible gas planning skills, and poor conservation attitudes.

Many more experienced divers and even instructors struggle in GUE-F:
1) because they have ingrained poor habits and/or
2) in response to critique they respond "Ok but..." getting defensive about those poor habits.

 

[mc42]

What’s tough about Fundies is learning new things, or new ways of doing old things, then having to demonstrate them right back within the performance requirements. Without a chance to go away for a few dives to get some practice and come back, it's hard. Which is why I think you have the option of doing Fundies in two parts now.

What isn’t noted beyond the list of performance requirements is how you’ll actually be required to demonstrate them. The basic 5 may seem trivial but may pose some difficulty when they have to be done trimmed and neutral and within a 3’ margin. Propulsion (frog, flutter, helicopter, back, and modified versions) will need to be learned and/or tweaked. Then there’s SMBs to be launched the GUE way, long hose donation, and especially ascents and descents. The ability to ascend and hold stops every 10’ for a minute, sliding up to the next stop, and doing that as a team without wobbling and while task loaded will be a huge asset. Work hard on controlled ascents and descents as that is usually what people don't get a lot of practice on unless they're technical divers.

And there's classroom work as well? Learning the GUE ascent (no 15' safety stop), gas management, EDGE, protocols, etc. The days are intense from start to finish.

Many students may have had a chance to practice with other GUE divers, as was the case in my class with one student (it was her second time doing it and she’d worked hard prior to the class with other GUE divers so she passed). I mention this in case you’re trying to gauge your progress against other students - don’t.

Do not expect to pass the first time if you’ve never dived a BP/W and long hose setup, never worked skills with other GUE divers, or haven’t done some technical diving already with a Hogarthian mindset. Expect every flaw in your technique to be exposed and discussed. So set your expectations appropriately - go for the training, not the pass, as they say. Practice lots and get re-evaluated for the pass when you’re ready.

 

[berndo]

And yet there are numerous even "big name" instructors who churn out terrible students, hand waving all over the place, swimming in circles, rototilling the bottom, terrible gas planning skills, and poor conservation attitudes.

Many more experienced divers and even instructors struggle in GUE-F:
1) because they have ingrained poor habits and/or
2) in response to critique they respond "Ok but..." getting defensive about those poor habits.

Yeah? Unfortunately, there are sh_t instructors. I agree with this. I don't know what you're trying to say. A crap cave instructor could go to a good instructor an fail intro to cave... what does that have to do with gue?

 

[berndo]

"Competent" is a low bar. Fundies teaches the skills that GUE believes are the "very basics," but not everyeone who finishes Fundies will end up with the same level of precision in performing them. Anyone who completes a cave class is "competent" in the relevant skills, as I would define the word, but we still see people in the caves who look like they are continuing to refine their skills. I am one of them. I could take Fundies all over again and improve something.

Also, even though a seasoned diver might find a skill "easy to do," they may not necessarily be doing the skill the way GUE likes it done. Maybe that is "improvement" or maybe just an equivalent alternative.

I don't think 'competent' is a low bar at all. Competent to me is a very solid pass as in at least a good B or B+. Not everyone who completes a class is competent.
You, me and anyone elso can probebly go back and take some high school class and improve and learn something... it think that is a low bar.

Also, even though a seasoned diver might find a skill "easy to do," they may not necessarily be doing the skill the way GUE likes it done.

Like what?

 

[Lorenzoid]

Not everyone who completes a class is competent.

We will have to disagree on the definition, then. For the sake of not diverting this thread further, I would gladly agree that an experienced cave or tech diver would likely find it "easy" (your word) to meet the threshold criteria for a rec pass and maybe even find it easy to meet the higher threshold criteria for a tech pass. But maybe some are still "incompetent" by your definition. LOL. And therefore Fundies might help those "incompetent" divers improve something. LOL again.

Like what?

For example, GUE's way of doing the flutter kick and modified flutter kick (that is, the "small" version of the full flutter) is just slightly different than what many divers are accustomed to.

 

[berndo]

But maybe some are still "incompetent" by your definition. LOL. And therefore Fundies might help those "incompetent" divers improve something. LOL again.

If you think that all the people who dive caves and made it through cave class are competent, I assume you haven't seen many or any cave divers in the wild. See what rjack said. Some of the celebrity instructor produce sh_tty divers. That's not exactly a secret.

 

[Lorenzoid]

If you think that all the people who dive caves and made it through cave class are competent, I assume you haven't seen many or any cave divers in the wild. See what rjack said. Some of the celebrity instructor produce sh_tty divers. That's not exactly a secret.

Those divers met some agency's standards for cave diving. I assume those agencies would define those divers as "competent." They may seem "terrible" (rjack's word) or even "sh_tty" (your word) to us, but they are not dying in the caves or clearly endangering others, which may very well be those agencies' implicit thresholds for competency. Since this thread is about Fundies rec pass, I should end by noting the same could be said of the OW divers we sometimes see brushing against the coral, returning to the boat with too little gas in reserve, etc.: "competent."

 

[berndo]

... but they are not dying in the caves or clearly endangering others, which may very well be those agencies' implicit thresholds for competency.

Only because you're a bad diver doen't mean you're going to die diving. Just more likely to get yourself in trouble. You think everybody who's a drivers licence is a competent driver too? We don't see more people dying in scuba because it's generally pretty safe... even for the bad once.
The issue with some agencies is that they have virtually no QC.
I don't know why you would nitpick over the word competent, I clarified how I meant it.

I've have literally seen people with 2 tanks and a 2x4 ratched strapped to a 30 year old poodle jacket go cave diving. Doen't mean they're going to die any time soon.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I don't know why you would nitpick over the word competent, I clarified how I meant it.

You're right. You clarified how you define it. This is a pointless side discussion.

 

[ginti]

This is going to be fun for me!

Unfortunately, not so much fun for the OP @Tigerpaw. I hope you have already understood what to do at this point because this is becoming another thread "GUE vs. not GUE", and discussions will probably be a bit dogmatic and sterile. It is definitely not your fault, your questions were genuine and more than reasonable.

Feel free to reach out via PM if the noise here is too much (although I cannot guarantee I can find the time to answer - I tend to be rather busy depending on my job schedule).

Dive safe